Racism again

[bluegas]

Hi is there a link for this as I would like to read it thanks or could I tell me what to search up

[Angst]

I got the book I mentioned after a post by Ashley. It is full of new insights.  I have experienced shame for a long time and read the stuff about it. The book published, CBT for OCD, is a think the standard reference point for shame and OCD. It is generally recognised that OCD is about more than anxiety. It’s about shame too. This is why there was a shift in 2013 in the classification of OCD as being exclusively an anxiety disorder. The book is not a self help book but written for practitioners but as Ashley said useful nonetheless. Also only the latter section of the book is about shame.
 

I seem to remember you saying that you found CBT not enough but in some cases apparently CBT + is recommended for some forms of OCD with compassion therapy and ACT also being used. DRS1 mentioned something akin to what I am saying in NLL thread about the impact on the self of certain thoughts. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Angst

[bluegas]

I don’t find cbt helpful but I still like to read everything I can ! Shame is definitely more of a emotion I feel rather than anxiety!  Anxiety is there but anxiety is just a symptom and I can bring anxiety down ! So I will definitely give this book a read ! Thanks for reply 

[bluegas]

Actually just read the books description and it even says that many therapists find it hard administrating cbt for ocd effectively because it has so many challenging factors! Which has made me feel a bit better because there are 1 or 2 on here that make me feel like a complete dunce because I just can’t get my head round it ! But I’ve also seen now that the professionals are admitting that standard cbt is not good enough for ocd treatment and they are now trialing something called icbt that is more ocd based 

[malina]

3 minutes ago, bluegas said:

Actually just read the books description and it even says that many therapists find it hard administrating cbt for ocd effectively because it has so many challenging factors! Which has made me feel a bit better because there are 1 or 2 on here that make me feel like a complete dunce because I just can’t get my head round it ! But I’ve also seen now that the professionals are admitting that standard cbt is not good enough for ocd treatment and they are now trialing something called icbt that is more ocd based 

It took me a long time to "get it", if I even fully get it at this point. When I first started CBT, I did the most obvious things the therapists asked of me and it did work, it helped reduce my worst symptoms. Yet, I held on to so many false beliefs and kept doing compulsions without even realising it. It took a relapse 10 years later and a second round of therapy to start seeing the extent to which I needed to change things. Still working on it 15 years after diagnosis. Nothing to feel like a dunce about. I do think it has helped me a lot but it's still a work in progress.

[bluegas]

I think learning cbt is a great tool to learn  and it definitely can help to prevent crawling down that dreaded rabbit hole and it probably even  has stopped me at times but ocd is and can be very powerful and if it wants it will drag us in ! And once we are in there I don’t think cbt is any good because it’s no good for fire fighting! 

[Cora]

Thank you @snowbear, @malina and @Angst.

Well, I think this is a problem for me. I hope it's not annoying to hear this but there's not much that I like about myself or feel proud of.

When I was younger I used to say that I was a good, caring sister and that I was proud of myself for being able to take care of another human being, but I don't feel like that anymore. I don't think I left a good impact/mark on my brother, quite the contrary actually. This might sound (or not) like a silly example but he's learned from me how to crack his knuckles and I've asked (even begged) him to stop, but he always says it's my fault because I did it first and won't stop. I have also swore in front of him and once I did it on purpose because I couldn't handle him behaving the way he was. In addition, as I've said earlier, I have a very short tempered character, especially when it comes to children hence why I'm not having children, and I've lost it in front of my brother. There was also this incident when he was a baby where I dropped him on the bed and some other ones which were not nice at all. 
What I'm trying to say that I had one thing that I was proud of but managed to ruin it and the older I'm getting, the more I realise I'm not suitable and skilled to take care of another human being, especially a child, and even though it's sad to say it, I wish I never had to do it. That way, I would have not been in position where I worry of my impact on my brother and how that's going to affect him later on in life. 

[Cora]

3 hours ago, Angst said:

It is great that you are going to CADAT these themes will be discussed in therapy. When is your therapy scheduled?

Hi @Angst, 

Unfortunately, I don't know. I was told that I can start therapy as soon as there is an available therapist, but haven't been given a time frame. I think on the OCD-UK website it says that it takes around 4 to 6 months for therapy to start, if I'm not mistaken. 

[malina]

20 minutes ago, Cora said:

Thank you @snowbear, @malina and @Angst.

Well, I think this is a problem for me. I hope it's not annoying to hear this but there's not much that I like about myself or feel proud of.

When I was younger I used to say that I was a good, caring sister and that I was proud of myself for being able to take care of another human being, but I don't feel like that anymore. I don't think I left a good impact/mark on my brother, quite the contrary actually. This might sound (or not) like a silly example but he's learned from me how to crack his knuckles and I've asked (even begged) him to stop, but he always says it's my fault because I did it first and won't stop. I have also swore in front of him and once I did it on purpose because I couldn't handle him behaving the way he was. In addition, as I've said earlier, I have a very short tempered character, especially when it comes to children hence why I'm not having children, and I've lost it in front of my brother. There was also this incident when he was a baby where I dropped him on the bed and some other ones which were not nice at all. 
What I'm trying to say that I had one thing that I was proud of but managed to ruin it and the older I'm getting, the more I realise I'm not suitable and skilled to take care of another human being, especially a child, and even though it's sad to say it, I wish I never had to do it. That way, I would have not been in position where I worry of my impact on my brother and how that's going to affect him later on in life. 

Cora, I think you spend quite a lot of your life living for other people. You have taken care of your brother since you both were very young, you have to help your parents, you don't have as much freedom as some people do because of it. Is there something you can think about that is uniquely about you, not related to your brother of boyfriend or whatever, that you are proud of? Who are you when it's not in relation to other people? What do you want from your life?

[Cora]

I feel really guilty for this (I know I always say this but I promise it's genuine) because having these conversations gives me a new, healthier perspective, which is better than confessing and ruminating, and I don't want to ruin that.

At the same time, I feel guilty for having these conversations and being told that I deserve to forgive myself and change who I am. The reason for that is what has been happening for the past few days. I can't stop saying slurs in my head when interacting with Black people and sometimes it's one purpose. It started after watching a TV show. I heard that word and for some reason repeated it in my head (which seemed like it was for fun, even though that's gross) and then I just started saying it in my head. 

I was at a crossing yesterday, in a rush to get to work because I was late. There were a few people there and when one person, who was Black, was really slow and didn't appreciate the fact that I moved so they can have space to cross (I know they didn't have to but that's how I felt in that moment), and I said the slur in my head (I can't tell if it was a voluntary or involuntary thing) and because of that I made a weird face. It's bad enough that I say the slur, get angry at Black people for no reason, but now I am behaving weirdly as well because of what's happening in my head. 

Another thing that happened was that I was reducing products for clearance yesterday and when one Black person came over to have a look, I started behaving nicer than I normally would. I put certain things closer to them so they can get them and I think it was unnecessary. I also had a thought about them being poor (I don't know how and why but it was based on their appearance, especially the jewelry) and I think that influenced my (fake) nicer behaviour. 

I can't tell anymore if I'm becoming more and more racist even though that's the last thing I want. More and more thoughts about comparison with animals are taking over my mind and I feel like I'm living a hell. And I have no idea if I'm saying the slur involuntarily - I can't tell that for sure and it's frustrating. 

I know there is another recent post on the forum about racism and I can clearly see how that's OCD, but I'm not so sure about mine.

[Angst]

Your description of your relations with your brother are extremely mild in relation to my experience with my sibling. Your memory search engine is very biased and you evaluate things in a hyper critical way. You produce shaming memories. As Snowbear says, is your role model a saint? I have never met one.

Malina made a good point. (Just read when typing) Something about you not relational.

[malina]

Just now, Cora said:

I feel really guilty for this (I know I always say this but I promise it's genuine) because having these conversations gives me a new, healthier perspective, which is better than confessing and ruminating, and I don't want to ruin that.

At the same time, I feel guilty for having these conversations and being told that I deserve to forgive myself and change who I am. The reason for that is what has been happening for the past few days. I can't stop saying slurs in my head when interacting with Black people and sometimes it's one purpose. It started after watching a TV show. I heard that word and for some reason repeated it in my head (which seemed like it was for fun, even though that's gross) and then I just started saying it in my head. 

I was at a crossing yesterday, in a rush to get to work because I was late. There were a few people there and when one person, who was Black, was really slow and didn't appreciate the fact that I moved so they can have space to cross (I know they didn't have to but that's how I felt in that moment), and I said the slur in my head (I can't tell if it was a voluntary or involuntary thing) and because of that I made a weird face. It's bad enough that I say the slur, get angry at Black people for no reason, but now I am behaving weirdly as well because of what's happening in my head. 

Another thing that happened was that I was reducing products for clearance yesterday and when one Black person came over to have a look, I started behaving nicer than I normally would. I put certain things closer to them so they can get them and I think it was unnecessary. I also had a thought about them being poor (I don't know how and why but it was based on their appearance, especially the jewelry) and I think that influenced my (fake) nicer behaviour. 

I can't tell anymore if I'm becoming more and more racist even though that's the last thing I want. More and more thoughts about comparison with animals are taking over my mind and I feel like I'm living a hell. And I have no idea if I'm saying the slur involuntarily - I can't tell that for sure and it's frustrating. 

I know there is another recent post on the forum about racism and I can clearly see how that's OCD, but I'm not so sure about mine.

Ok Cora listen to me. When you get these feelings of guilt telling you that you don't deserve to move on, you tell yourself that by listening to that, you are giving yourself permission to stay as the Cora you don't want to be. Listening to those voices is the self indulgent, negative path that allows you to keep making excuses not to do the hard work you need to do. Letting go, moving forward, becoming more positive will make you a better person. This is the path that requires hard work and no excuses. Treat this as OCD, just try it.

[Cora]

2 minutes ago, malina said:

Cora, I think you spend quite a lot of your life living for other people. You have taken care of your brother since you both were very young, you have to help your parents, you don't have as much freedom as some people do because of it. Is there something you can think about that is uniquely about you, not related to your brother of boyfriend or whatever, that you are proud of? Who are you when it's not in relation to other people? What do you want from your life?

Okay, I will be completely honest: I have nothing to be proud of and it really upsets me. 

But I think I do know what I want from my life. I want to get a better job, move out, become more active (I would love to be a good runner), maybe get a masters, learn how to cook properly (especially vegan recipes), travel to a few countries and learn how to forgive myself and being okay with not being the a great person. 

[malina]

1 minute ago, Cora said:

Okay, I will be completely honest: I have nothing to be proud of and it really upsets me. 

But I think I do know what I want from my life. I want to get a better job, move out, become more active (I would love to be a good runner), maybe get a masters, learn how to cook properly (especially vegan recipes), travel to a few countries and learn how to forgive myself and being okay with not being the a great person. 

I am going away for 2 weeks so I won't be able to use the forum much. By the time I come back, I want you to find one thing about yourself that you are proud of. Just one...anything...you have 2 weeks!

[Cora]

Just now, malina said:

I am going away for 2 weeks so I won't be able to use the forum much. By the time I come back, I want you to find one thing about yourself that you are proud of. Just one...anything...you have 2 weeks!

Okay, malina, I will try to find one. 

[malina]

2 minutes ago, Cora said:

Okay, malina, I will try to find one. 

Great! I won't forget, I'll come here and ask you when I'm back

[Cora]

37 minutes ago, malina said:

Ok Cora listen to me. When you get these feelings of guilt telling you that you don't deserve to move on, you tell yourself that by listening to that, you are giving yourself permission to stay as the Cora you don't want to be. Listening to those voices is the self indulgent, negative path that allows you to keep making excuses not to do the hard work you need to do. Letting go, moving forward, becoming more positive will make you a better person. This is the path that requires hard work and no excuses. Treat this as OCD, just try it.

@malina, would it be reassurance seeking if I asked if I can forgive myself for what I said earlier? 

I know we agreed that there is no limit to how many times I can forgive myself but how about the severity of a situation/moment? What if there are situations more grave than the others? 

[malina]

1 minute ago, Cora said:

@malina, would it be reassurance seeking if I asked if I can forgive myself for what I said earlier? 

I know we agreed that there is no limit to how many times I can forgive myself but how about the severity of a situation/moment? What if there are situations more grave than the others? 

I didn't read what you said earlier and I won't. You have to make the effort Cora. If I read it and answer this question, it'll just be delaying the work that you need to do. Start now.

[Cora]

4 minutes ago, malina said:

I didn't read what you said earlier and I won't. You have to make the effort Cora. If I read it and answer this question, it'll just be delaying the work that you need to do. Start now.

Okay, malina, I understand. And I'm sorry if I put you in an uncomfortable position. 

[malina]

1 minute ago, Cora said:

Okay, malina, I understand. And I'm sorry if I put you in an uncomfortable position. 

No need to be sorry, I don't think this is an uncomfortable situation. I just want to do the right thing.

[Caramoole]

Fingers crossed for a speedy appointment with CADAT and hopefully assessment & treatment with specialist professionals who can direct the best course of treatment for you.  There are many, many excellent points contained within this thread but I worry that already it's working to add an extra layer to aid reassurance rather than you applying the principles & suggestions.

[Cora]

14 hours ago, Cora said:

I can't stop saying slurs in my head when interacting with Black people and sometimes it's one purpose. It started after watching a TV show. I heard that word and for some reason repeated it in my head (which seemed like it was for fun, even though that's gross) and then I just started saying it in my head. 

I was at a crossing yesterday, in a rush to get to work because I was late. There were a few people there and when one person, who was Black, was really slow and didn't appreciate the fact that I moved so they can have space to cross (I know they didn't have to but that's how I felt in that moment), and I said the slur in my head (I can't tell if it was a voluntary or involuntary thing) and because of that I made a weird face. It's bad enough that I say the slur, get angry at Black people for no reason, but now I am behaving weirdly as well because of what's happening in my head. 

Another thing that happened was that I was reducing products for clearance yesterday and when one Black person came over to have a look, I started behaving nicer than I normally would. I put certain things closer to them so they can get them and I think it was unnecessary. I also had a thought about them being poor (I don't know how and why but it was based on their appearance, especially the jewelry) and I think that influenced my (fake) nicer behaviour. 

I can't tell anymore if I'm becoming more and more racist even though that's the last thing I want. More and more thoughts about comparison with animals are taking over my mind and I feel like I'm living a hell. And I have no idea if I'm saying the slur involuntarily - I can't tell that for sure and it's frustrating. 

Yesterday was a good day but this is very upsetting and disappointing. 

[bluegas]

It dose go to show and prove it’s all ocd thou !! And how strong it can be ! Like I completely get the thing with your brother as I’ve been there a million times and being a pedo and hated by society’ is a massive fear of mine to !   Yet I’ve got a black father-in-law mixed race sister in law ! And I get intrusive racist thoughts  but I suppose because becoming a racist don’t bother me  the obsessing can’t set in! I suppose my brain is happy to accept the uncertainty on this one !! I wish it could on everything else ! Again I know this is not particularly helpful but I think sometimes seeing ocd for what it is can help and I hope this isn’t reassurance but it dose interest me the dynamics of ocd and how it finds  away in ! Literally the last thing I am is racist but just typing this out I recon the N word has popped in my head  at least 20 times! Yet I’m more than happy to accept I’m not racist!! But I can hardly look at a kid or even another adult woman because I’d  convince my self I don’t love my wife or I’m a pervert pedo !! Go figure!! Ocd’s a **** 

[snowbear]

23 hours ago, Cora said:

Okay, I will be completely honest: I have nothing to be proud of and it really upsets me.

Piffle and tosh.

You're not applying yourself to this simple 'think of one thing about me that I'm proud of' task.

You fell straight back into your comfort zone immediate response of 'There's nothing, there's no point in looking. Yawn. I'm not even going to try. Right, that's it. I'm switching off my brain again now.'

Be honest. How long did you rack your brain for before coming back to Malina with 'there's nothing'? One second? 5 seconds?

If you can't be bothered to spend even a few minutes digging deep and really trying to find something you like about yourself or are proud of, then I don't know how you're going to find the motivation to do the work necessary to make a nicer, better, OCD-free you. 

The problem is partly that your current way of thinking has got so ingrained that you discount everything at a glance instead of re-evaluating it.

For example - you got a degree! Yay! You should be proud of that.

But instead you go with your negative bias thinking, your habitual, 'Yes but...' response. 'I only got a 2-2. And at that point you stop dead instead of re-evaluating that experience in a more positive light.

We've all noticed how much you  love that little word 'but'.

So let's use BUT to your advantage as a word that motivates you and moves you forward instead of using it like it's sticky mental glue.

'OK , I got a 2-2 and I'm disappointed in myself for not doing better, BUT I got a degree! I had 3 years experiencing life as a student. I'm sooo lucky! Lots of people would love to be in my shoes. I'm proud of my achievements so far. 

Next focus on the words 'so far'. Getting a degree wasn't an end point. It's a starting point. A stepping stone to the next chapter of your life. So...

'Getting a 2-2 was a wake-up call. I now realise it's part of my nature to be lazy and take the easy way out of things. OK. BUT nobody's perfect! I accept that's part of my nature. Now I know that I tend to opt for easy solutions I'll be on the lookout for that in future and if I see I'm being lazy I'll apply myself more. I'm proud that I'm starting to understand myself better and can put that self-awareness to good use in future. '

That took me all of 2 seconds to think that up. And I wasn't even there! You were. So come on - what other things in your life or in your character can you be proud of? And if it takes a little bit of re-evaluating thinking to get there, so much the better.  You need the practise.

Take some time to think about your response. Don't just start typing something negative straight away.

 

[snowbear]

22 hours ago, Cora said:

But I think I do know what I want from my life. I want to get a better job, move out, become more active (I would love to be a good runner), maybe get a masters, learn how to cook properly (especially vegan recipes), travel to a few countries and learn how to forgive myself and being okay with not being a great person. 

Ooh, a positive BUT! 

These a great goals.   They show good insight into where you want your life to go and how you wish to develop as a person.

We want MORE of this!   A LOT MORE!