snowbear

If it was normal thinking, you'd review the past, make a decision and move on. When it's OCD you go round in circles, never satisfied with the answers you get, never completely sure you've made the right decision - so you review it again, and again. Which does it sound like to you?

How do you 'deal' with it? Are you 'dealing' with it by neutralising or rationalising it to yourself? (Compulsions) There may be a clue in the way you respond that helps explain why it remains a recurrent problem. Good idea. Remember that you aren't seeing evidence. You're seeing something you interpret as 'evidence'. Very different things. OCD arises from the misinterpretation of thoughts and feelings. Thinking, 'Oh no, X got sick and that means I caused it' is you making an interpretation of something so that it seems connected when it isn't. There's probably also a lot of unconscious thinking (core belief stuff) going on... 'I caused harm therefore I ought to feel guilty.' And so you create the guilt you feel (and the anxiety) in order to bring about the expected / correct (according to my core beliefs) result! It can get very layered and complicated when we delve into our core beliefs and how they drive our responses. But it's a very worthwhile exercise to do. And though changing these ingrained thinking paths isn't easy, it's very, very worthwhile to give it a go!

It means nothing of the sort! I didn't mean anything more than exactly what I said. You think it's a valid concern, therefore to you it is something that warrants thinking about in a rational way. My opinion is irrelevant. But note the key words - in a rational way. That means stepping back from the fear and asking yourself non-emotional questions about what you might gain from going to a Neurologist, and whether it will answer specifically the questions you want answers to, or whether it would just leave you in the same place as before - still obsessing about the risk of you getting dementia. Personally, I do think your desire to see a neurologist is the result of being obsessional. @Caramoole asked you some time ago what the nature of the repeated head injuries you sustained was, but you never replied. That's fine, you're under no obligation to tell us any more about yourself than you're comfortable with sharing. But that does leave us forming our opinions about whether a neurologist is necessary or not based on how you talk about this overall. And there I see all the hallmarks of obsessional thinking and obsessional 'reasoning'. Fabulous, fabulous, fabulous! Great to hear that you're getting on with life despite the worries in the background. It's all anyone can do. Happily, the less attention you pay to all that mind-fluff in the background, and the more you commit to and immerse yourself in the moment, the quieter and less intrusive all that background worry becomes. So just keep on keeping busy. The ideas 'everything is fruitless' and 'I definitely could not cope with it' are just more intrusive thoughts. More catastrophic thinking. The result of how you talk to yourself rather than truths or reality. For example - are those fabulous things you've spent your timing doing recently really pointless whether they lead to something more or your life ends before they bear fruit? Are they not things worth doing in their own right? However small and insignificant our day to day lives may seem, it's the sum of all those tiny things that gives real meaning to our lives. Not some sweeping idea of 'an-entire-life-wasted-by-getting-dementia-in the end'. All we have is the small things. The moment to moment. We leave our mark on the world in billions of tiny ways, through millions of actions and interactions with other people. If we're looking for meaning in our lives that's where we'll find it. I think it's good advice for everyone to spend a bit of time thinking about the meaning of their life. Deciding what your life means gives you something to hold onto on the days you can't see the point in what you're doing, and acts as a signpost to get you back on the right path if you start to lose your way. It gives you a strong sense of self-worth. Importantly, you and you alone decide what the meaning of your life is. And you're free to change it as your interests and priorities change. It can be about the kind of person you want to be - 'to live as a nice person'. Or it can be specific - 'to do this, this and that'. Or it might be deep and thought-provoking - 'I changed the world by doing this...and being like that...' Doesn't matter what you decide the meaning of your life is, as long as it makes sense to you, and gives you the feeling that your life has purpose and value (meaning.) Whatever it brings. I wonder if some of your catastrophic assumptions you make around what it would mean if you developed dementia might come from not having a clear sense of the purpose and value of your life as a whole. Is it something you've ever pondered?

So the sooner you get yourself onto that waiting list the better. I've got a hammer and nails in my tool box, but I've never taken them out of the toolbox and put them to use. Does the 'fact' I've not got shelves up on my wall prove that my wall is incapable of holding up shelves? We first have to learn how to use the tools of recovery (through CBT). And then we have to apply those tools consistently and do lots and lots of practice. (The first shelves you put up probably aren't going to be 100% perfect. The 1000th time you put up shelves you'll be pretty darn good at it!) Hmm. So your usual technique is slightly faulty in that the strategy is to convince yourself none of your worries are real. What if instead you applied the stategy of accepting your thinking gets a bit skewed, that the way you're interpreting things gets a bit off, and that compulsive behaviours like ruminating don't fix the wonky thinking... see the difference? Your worries can be real as real can be, but by thinking about them in a different way you find solutions. Behaving in a way that doesn't rely on compulsions to give you short-term relief teaches you that it's ok to interpret things a different way, that the sky doesn't fall because you change how you look at stuff. So go on... What is this unspeakable thing that's happened? Will you allow us to help you to process it? And in case you're stuck on the 'but this is r e a l and there's evidence because the person is not fine' line of thinking, let me just say that one of my past obsessions was being responsible for somebody's death. There was even a dead body in front of me as 'evidence'. But I learned how to process it eventually, once I got my head around it in a new way. So, is what you've done more terrible than that 'reality'?

Well, talk about dodgy advice... I think perhaps the people on the alternative forum are wearing OCD goggles themselves and may therefore not be seeing things as clearly as they might. Ah, there's the crux of it. Of course nobody would deliberately put their family in danger. That's normal. Goes without saying! BUT - the danger OCD imagines you're exposing your family to is WAY out of proportion to the real risk. So, it is normal to drill holes in your asbestos-containing artex if that's what's required, and simply take the sensible recommended precautions when doing so. (No need to go to the lengths your obsessive fears demand.) It's not normal to put off necessary repairs because of an obsessive fear. Nor would a mentally well person put off repairs because of a 'normal' level of fear. They'd 'feel the fear and do it anyway.' They'd make the experts doing the job aware of the presence of asbestos, ask them to take the industry-recommended precautions, and then delegate the job to the experts without interfering or doing additional 'preventative measures' themselves. Imagining the experts aren't taking 'enough' precaution when they just roll up their sleves and get on with the job is yet more obsessive thinking. You really think they value their own lives, and the health of their own families, less than you value yours? They'll be taking every necessary precaution and then some as a matter of routine! At no point has anybody suggested you get complacent about the risks. Recovery doesn't mean 'not caring'. It means getting things back into perspective. It means thinking about things differently. All you're aiming to give up is the unnecessary, unhelpful aspect - the obsessive thinking that has paralysed you and allowed your house to fall into disrepair. If you get a further bout of obsessive thinking down the line that has you imagining you've done wrong and put your family in danger by having the repairs done, then you tackle that bout of obsessive thinking in the same way as you tackle this bout of obsessive thinking - getting things back into perspective, letting go of the ruminations, moving on with your life without wasting time on unnecessary worry - and without giving up on life because your obsessive thoughts try to convince you you've done wrong. Until a few years ago I too made the mistake of thinking that 'recovery' meant 'giving in'. I dug my heels in and became even more defensive and obsessive. Thankfully, I eventually listened more carefully to what I was being told. It wasn't about 'giving up' or 'giving in' at all. Recovery means changing your obsessive thinking to normal thinking. To stop seeing the world through OCD-tinted goggles and look at things the way people without OCD look at things. That isn't the same as 'not caring' or 'not being afraid sometimes.' People without OCD care, and get anxious at times, but they don't let their thoughts run away with them and allow imagined fears to paralyse them. If 'recovery' in your mind has become a picture of hopelessness, caving in, not caring, putting your family at risk... I'd not see the point either! So thankfully that picture of what recovery looks like isn't reality. You're aiming to get to a point where you can keep your obsessive fears and imagined consequences in check To get to where you can deal with the normal, rational fears around asbestos and risk in a normal, rational way. And then to 'feel the uncertainty and do it anyway' by getting the necessary repairs done, and not postponing future repairs because of OCD. Oh yes - and to get back to enjoying living in a comfortable, well-maintained, safe home with your family.

Have you watched the conference video about Uncertainty? Making sense of uncertainty Hope it helps.

@MLJ I came across this video from one of our charity's conferences. It's intended for parents of children rather than parents of an adult sufferer, but I thought you might find it useful. How to motivate your child to engage with therapy

Exactly. Sensible question, but sadly the answer is no. It's not intended to be a get out of jail free card that condones doing compulsions to your heart's content for 15 minutes! (Although I think it does get interpreted that way by a lot of people.) 'Worry time' is time set aside to think about a genuine problem in non-obsessive ways. 'Normal worrying' if you like. Googling about head injuries and researching neorologists are compulsions. You've done them to death already. They haven't solved the problem or helped you to make an informed decision. Further googling/researching or compulsions of any sort won't solve the problem or help you make a decision, so doing that again is a backward step, not a step forward. But it's perfectly reasonable to set aside some time to think through where you're up to on deciding whether or not to see a neurologist. (Making a decision about something which genuinely needs a decision made on it.) I wouldn't label it as 'worry' time, but if thats what you want to call it then fine. Maybe 'review where I'm at on making a decision' time would be a better label! That reminds you that the point is to use the time to move you forward in some way. Which brings me to another point about worry time in general that I forgot to mention in my earlier post. Allowing yourself some designated 'worry time' at some point in the day is intended to free up the rest of your day. So that you only engage with the topic you have a tendency to ruminate on for a brief time each day rather than spending every waking moment on it. If used in that way it can be a very helpful tool - the delay in engaging with your obsession teaches you that you don't have to give in to a compulsion the instant you get the urge. The urge to ruminate is typically powerful and often overwhelming. But if you're used to waiting until a designated time to think about/ engage with a problem, it shows you that ruminating can be delayed, or not done at all. Which is a helpful lesson to learn.

Looking at how thoughts influence feelings and behaviour using the vicious flower diagram for starters, and though I'm not up on quoting references like you, Angst, yes it's been researched and is used by the top psychologists in OCD. Then there's all the ACT (acceptance commitment) stuff, reviewing your inner dialogue, learning self-compassion, looking at cognitive distortions etc. My point is that Theory A/Theory B is only one of many possible aporoaches. A good therapist will often try more than one approach and continue with whichever one resonnates best with that particular client. Cognitive therapy isn't a one-size-fits-all outfit - or if it is then the best analogy would be the most stretchy and pliable lycra garment ever made!

Perhaps no-one replied because what you wrote is a rumination you've been playing out in your head. It's a plea for reassurance, not a request for advice or support in tackling your obsessions. How are you getting on with therapy? What strategies have you learned to help you break away from these pointless ruminations about the past?

Oh that's easy to answer. It will last for as long as you keep thinking about it! So get your mind onto other things. Get busy with life and try not to engage with the feeling a being 'stuck'.

It's one possible approach in cognitive therapy. Personally I have never found the Theory A/B scenario of any use whatsoever. But that may be because it doesn't lend itself to the sort of thing I obsess about. Some people find it useful and that's great for them. Horses for courses! I never found postponement of any use either. (Again speaking personally, I know it helps some people.) For me it just ensured I didn't let go of the problem, but kept it cooking on a back burner. I always ended up revisiting it eventually (sometimes even years later), and when that time came dealing with it was a thousand times more obsessive and self-punitive than if I'd dealt with it at the time. The longer the delay, the harsher I was with myself and the more stringent, prolonged and complex the (eventual) compulsions became. 'Worry time', I think depends on how you use it. As @deValentin said, sometimes there are 2 problems - a valid one that requires some attention and a secondary one of becoming over-attentive and obsessed with it. As long as the permitted 'worry time' is used to address the real problem in a completely practical way (stopping at once if you find yourself ruminating or catastrophising rather than problem solving) then it can help to separate the actual problem from the anxiety about the problem. But use with caution, and not routinely. And not suitable for the kind of obsessive thoughts that are entirely the result of imaginary fears and misinterpretation of actual risk/ action.

Very simple; use the @ sign and type the person's screen name.

Oh we all hope that, for sure! Sadly, speaking from personal experience, that kind of 'I've shocked myself into getting help/ giving up the OCD' feeling lasts a very short time before the OCD drags you back into thinking 'I'm coping as I am, just leave me to get on with it.' I really hope your daughter does use this episode to motivate her into seeking help (or just gets to the point of seeking help natually.) Good luck!

Hi NLL, I've locked the thread as requested, but left your replies because - as your thinking gets straighter again - they may act as reminders to you of how believing the guilty feelings led you down the rabbit hole. If you do feel compelled to revisit this thread, I suggest you read only ocdjonesy's excellent post: Blips are par for the course, NLL. You got your thinking straight before, and you will do it again. Just take your own good advice (quoted above by ocdjonesy) and keep going.

Ok, I think I get what you mean. Just to be sure we're talking about the same thing I'll use an example. If I've misunderstood what you're asking then let me know with an example of your own. So... Let's say your train of thought is 'It's bin day tomorrow, I need to sort the recycling and put the bins out.' (Wanted train of thought that requires action.) Then you're hit by an intrusive thought, 'What if I [insert OCD thought] while putting the bins out! 'This' might happen 'that' might happen . What if I die, what if I get arrested and sent to prison, what if... and you're off on one, ruminating and catastrophising before you catch yourself on. CBT tells you to notice these intrusive thoughts, halt the ruminations and refocus away. So you'd refocus back to the train of thought you wanted to think. You might say to yourself, 'Forget all the what ifs. Right now, focus on getting the recycling sorted and stay focused until after I've put the bins out.' You might also use the mindfulness idea of 'Stay in the moment' to keep the ruminations at bay while you work through the task at hand. Is that what you meant? In other words refocusing doesn't have to be 'Change the topic completely', only 'Keep to the core topic, or whatever needs sorting, and don't allow yourself to get distracted by the intrusive thoughts.'

I agree with Hal, I don't think it's possible to pin individual replies in a thread- we can't even do that as mods. I've tried keeping track of good replies in the past too, but never found a solution. Maybe other people will have some ideas we could try.

I say it is a choice, BUT that doesn't mean that you're to blame if you find it hard to stop ruminating. So no guilt required. The 'choice' is often an unconscious one. I think confusion arises because people mis-interpret what the 'choice' that you are making is about. You aren't choosing between 'Shall I ruminate or shall I stop ruminating'. You're making a choice between 'Can I let this go, or do I still need (want) to solve the problem'. It's very hard to stop ruminating if 40% of your brain is saying 'I have to stop' and 60% is screaming 'I have to solve this! I need to fix it! I must know for certain!' Which is why it helps to do so cognitive work alongside the behavioural advice of 'stop ruminating'. That means changing the value you put on solving/ fixing/ knowing for certain. Decide that it is more valuable to you to be free of your OCD and anxiety in the medium to longer term than it is to feel that you've fixed things in the present. Instead of the goal of finding answers, make your goal to get rid of the troublesome, screwed up OCD thinking that causes the unpleasant feelings. Or to put that another way, get into the headspace where 60% (or more!) of you wants to stop doing compulsions and less than 40% of you wants answers. (Accepting the answers weren't important anyway, they just felt important because of the way you've been thinking about them.)

A question on CBT -yay! My favourite topic. Let's see if we can straighten out the kinks in your understanding of how CBT works. Using mindfulness - mindfulness is about observing without judgement. It is never about hypervigilance nor does it require you to analyse your thoughts. Quite the opposite! There are two parts, i) observe. Treat unwanted thoughts like leaves flowing down a river - notice them, let them carry on 'passing through' and allow them to disappear into the distance without intervening in any way. ii) without judgement. I can't stress the importance of this enough. Mindfulness is based on acceptance. Judgement is the opposite of acceptance. 'This is good, that is bad, this makes me a monster, that needs neutralising...' etc. With acceptance, nothing is ever good or bad - it simply is. Fact. Not 'fact-that-I don't-like' or 'fact that I'm struggling to come to terms with' just fact (neutral.) Neither good nor bad, it just is, and when you accept it you allow it to be what it is without feeling you have to change it in any way. If you're resisting then yeah, it'll stick around. Because resisting is a form of judgement. 'I can't allow this to just be. It's 'bad', therefore I am morally obliged to do something about it.' With acceptance you permit yourself to let go of that judgement thinking. It's not bad, it just is. What 'just is' doesn't carry any kind of moral obligation to change or fix it. So you let it go, without the need for further action. If letting it go is still a struggle, then you're hanging on to that hidden judgement thinking like a dog with a bone! Labelling - the idea of labelling is to quickly identify the thought as intrusive/ unwanted. No more than that. If you start to analyse the thought in any way (also referred to as 'engaging' with it) then you've moved into compulsion territory. Labelling is all about giving yourself permission NOT to engage with the thought. For example, say you have a scary thought; 'I'm a pedo.' If you engage with that your next thoughts might be 'I'm going to go to prison, I'll lose everything I care about.' And you're off again, lost deep in the badlands of compulsions. The idea of labelling it is to immediately recognise 'This is my OCD topic, my biggest worry (being a pedo) Here I go again'. Then - knowing it's just an intrusive thought and therefore doesn't merit any further analysis - you apply the mindfulness technique of letting it float past you without further ado. Refocus attention - When you first start to resist engaging with your OCD tghoughts it's common to last all of 10 seconds before the thought circles back round and demands attention again. Pretty universal to every sufferer I'd say! But by routinely adopting the 'Label it, let it go, and get busy thinking about something else' approach -and with consistent practise - those 10 seconds soon extend to 20, to 60, to ten minutes and so on. This is where mindfulness can help again. Thought> let it float on by, think about something else > thought cycles back again > let it float on by without judgement and think of something else> thought recurs > let it float on by without judging the thought AND without passing judgement on yourself or getting upset that it keeps coming back again and again. Stay calm. Let it be. Accept its presence without judgement or engagement. Focus on something else... and on, and on. I've lain awake at night in the past where a thought has kept cycling round for hours on end. These days I have a list of go-to topics I can use for refocusing. Within seconds of an unwanted thought entering my brain I just switch my thinking to one of my pre-chosen, no-judgement-attached topics and another 2 seconds later I've forgotten the intrusive thought was ever there. It just took a LOT of practise, and refocusing without allowing any self-judgement or frustration every 10 seconds at first, to get to where I'm at now. Ditching their 'autopilot' judgement thinking is a hard step for a lot of people. As children we're constantly trying to win the approval of our parents and do the right thing, so it becomes an ingrained habit to label everything as either good or bad, right or wrong. And I do mean everything! Every thought, every feeling, every action, every inaction... We learn to be our own judge and jury, a little voice in your head passing judgement on every second of your life. As we get older we're more able to try out different kinds of thinking such as acceptance, open-mindedness, playfulness, logic... and our emotional range increases - amusement, serenity, self-compassion, gratitude... and so on. Applying a judgement of some kind to everything is just habit. And like any habit that has outgrown its usefulness can be replaced with something healthier through practise, practise, practise. Consistency is key to faster change. If you apply the new thinking and approach every time you catch yourself passing judgement or getting caught up in ruminations and analysis about 'that's bad' then being non-judgemental soon becomes the 'new habit' and your new autopilot response. Just keep trying. ALWAYS without passing judgement on yourself . No labelling it as 'that was a failure', 'I'm no good at this' etc. Just, 'Ok, duly noted, I got a bit judgemental this time. I'll just try again next time.' Hope that helps explain what you're trying to do with your CBT!

I don't understand how they can say this. CBT is quite literally the most adaptable therapy in the universe. It can be adapted towards 'counselling' if needed and then move back towards 'therapy' as time goes on. I think you need to ask them what they mean by 'counselling'. Exactly what is it you're meant to achieve (where are you meant to be at) before they'll try CBT. How can they say you're not ready when they haven't even tried it! I get that the moment they say anything negative the rejection is so painful that you shut down and retreat into yourself rather than question them and fight for the help you're owed (totally get it - been there myself), but it is totally unacceptable to refuse anybody CBT on the grounds that they have to jump through some invisible hoop first. If they gave you 2 or 3 sessions of CBT and then concluded, 'Sorry Marko, it's now clear you're not ready to engage with this', that's fine. But to dismiss it out of hand without even giving you that opportunity is disgraceful. And they can't use depression as an excuse because CBT is the first line treatment recommended for depression too! So good on you for emailing a complaint. See what response you get, but then you need to arm yourself with an advocate/ friend who'll question and pester them when you don't feel strong enough to do so. I think you've been in touch with @Ashley through the charity helpline before? I'm going to alert him to your ongoing struggles and see what more can be done.

Thanks for the reminder, Angst. I'd forgotten Marko is in Scotland. Have edited my post accordingly. (ICBs are only for England.)

Hi Marko, You need to speak to your GP. It's a GP's job to manage the bigger picture. Your GP is responsible for coordinating all the different services you are under. It's their job to chase them up and sort out if they start passing you from pillar to post. It's also your GP's job to monitor and review how your medication is affecting your other medical conditions (eg. the quetiapine making you eat and disrupting your diabetes.) Just tell your GP exactly what you wrote here. If your GP still says they can't help you then they aren't doing their job properly. [EDIT - forgot you were in Scotland! If your GP isn't doing anything to sort it then you need to contact your local health board. Tell them that you're being denied therapy, nobody is taking responsibility for your care, and your GP just fobs you off. I found this advice for Scotland about when to contact your health board. https://www.nhsinform.scot/care-support-and-rights/health-rights/feedback-and-complaints/making-a-complaint-about-your-nhs-care-or-treatment It does seem to send you back to your GP (which is a good idea in the first instance, but useless if your GP still takes no interest.) If after talking to your GP again you still feel they aren't helping, then don't be shy about contacting the board for further advice. END EDIT!] The physio presumably means there is no obvious physical reason (like joint wear and tear or muscle wasting for example) that is limiting your movement. That doesn't mean they can wash their hands of you! They should be instructing you in strength building exercises, flexibility exercises, and ways to build stamina and maintain whatever mobility you have still got. Sometimes when we're struggling we can interpret things negatively and 'hear' rejection or lack of interest in what people tell us. That -and feeling hopeless -can be symptoms of depression. And sometimes the services meant to help us really are letting us down in a disgraceful way and need to be put to rights! Only you can say which one applies here. But whichever one it is, there is help out there. Don't give up! Do you have a friend or family member who could act as your advocate, or just be there for moral support, for the times it all feels too overwhelming and hopeless? These things are hard enough to deal with without having to go through it alone.

I agree with this. However, there's leverage and then there's leverage! Forcing someone to do CBT will never work. The person has to engage with the work and be willing to change. So threatening some kind of ultimatum (Go to therapy or else...) is doomed to failure. But encouraging and supportive, 'You're clearly suffering. Something has to change and therapy can help you achieve that' can get over that first hurdle of getting the person to agree they need help. If you want to use the damage to property as leverage for change, may I suggest you don't link it to therapy. If therapy gets linked in their mind to something the person doesn't want or feels angry/ resentful/ emotional about that makes it much harder to get into the emotional headspace you need to be in for CBT to work. However, it's perfectly reasonable to set ground rules, as you presumably did when she was a child. eg. You damage my property, you pay for the repairs from your income/ pocket money/ benefits. You make a mess, you clean up the mess. You want to live under my roof, you live by my rules (normal living rules, not 'You aren't allowed to do your OCD rituals' kind of rules.) Hope that helps.

Hi Bettyboo and to the forum. First off, tablets alone will not cure OCD. They can reduce anxiety levels which allows the person to engage with therapy more easily. However, a month is not long enough to say if they are helping or not. Any trial of medication should be a minimum of 6 weeks and ideally 3 months before deciding to stop. Therapy (CBT) is still required to overcome OCD. It can bring up other issues which then also need to be dealt with, but it is adaptable for people with autism and if one of the issues was difficulty in engaging with the therapy (doing the exercises) there are ways of managing that. You could also try a self-help book. There is a wide a range of them available, but all the ones recommended by OCD-UK give down-to-earth explanations of how OCD works and how to do your own CBT. You can find them (spread over 3 pages) here. Everybody has their own favourite, so if you decide to try a book just choose whichever one appeals to you and your son the most. Overcoming OCD by Veale and Wilson or Break Free from OCD by Challcombe, Bream and Sakovskis are probably the two most popular, but you might think one of the workbooks for teens with autism more appropriate - it's a matter of reading the blurb and deciding for yourself. The best way to help him is to educate yourself on OCD, so even if he won't read up on it, you can. There are also some helpful videos from our OCD-UK conferences aimed at parents/ family which you can check out here and this one on OCD and autism Any questions, just ask.