howard

So is cleaning your main obsession? (I don't even like looking at that picture above, I want to virtually clean up). But I actually enjoy cleaning, so back to the title of thread> if you like having a clean ordered environment and you enjoy keeping it at that level of clean then that's okay. It takes my mood down if I feel my environment is dusty or unclean. It's only when my stress levels are high for an extended time it becomes compulsive, repeating just like checking and if it disrupts the rest of your life then it does become a problem. I'm not sure about the list you made there. I think people may use; alcohol, drugs and sex to reduce anxiety and stress. I think that just normal or has become because modern life is stressful. I think over eating, eating disorders may be symptomatic of something, maybe depression. I wonder if over exercising releases some hormones that counteract the stress hormones. But some people become obsessive about that.

Yes I'm getting out as much as possible at present. It's like a sensory feast; all the growth of spring, sun, the sounds and even the smells of plants wake us from our winter hibernation. (Plus I'm doing what I said to Marko and making myself do more exercise). I think it's important (to me anyway) to try to reverse engineer my personality. Family life has a big impact in what they call our formative years. If home life is stressful maybe because of factors like wealth or lack of, housing, combative parents(we absorb the tensions and stresses) and even siblings, etc, all these things increase our stress base line which means that even moderate stress later in life sends us over the top(I'm doing some research into all the biological and psychological effects of that at present, including stress and anxiety levels and how hormones can even limit our ability to think clearly). As my parents never discussed my early life, I had to reverse engineer based on a few sentences. I don't feel angry, or resentful, I just find it helps me make sense of who I am. I knew at the age of five that I just had to keep my head down and get out of there. I never really got the healing crystal idea, but maybe I'm just being scientifically sceptical, but I've been listening to these singing bowls again and the amazingly long lasting vibrations do seem to reduce stress levels. This one is set at the exact frequency for maximum stress relief, 432hz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keoC-poCEwA&ab_channel=Sound-and-SilenceResonantHealing

I was wondering if you were still painting, lovely delicate pictures of insects I just had another look around the Courtaud exhibition. It's great being able to do that. I used to find that I would stand in front of a paintings in real life and absorb as much as possible, but my mind would get overloaded after a few rooms worth. So to be able to return again and again is perfect. I particularly like the Leon Kossoff portraits Auerbach did. Now he is someone who had an overly obsessive technique; charcoal, chalk and rubbing out until he went through the paper and then starting all over again. The images look almost ghost like. The Diceman idea is just a way of breaking free from habits and safe rituals. With the sculpture I was trying to break free of control, so it's a sort of liberating step away from anything done before. One thing that's considered a problem with fine art is that it's self referencing, and sort of exists tangentially to the real world. Conceptual art meant I had to study radical; philosophy, psychology, etc and incorporate that. It was perfect for me and my tutor who dealt with the theory was great and inspiring. Also conceptual art tries to break away from art as capitalist object. Yes fine art tutors seem to take critiquing to the point of being dismissive, I only met one positive one. I've seen others reduce students to tears. Maggi Hambling looks like a real character>

Thanks Angst. Yes I'm already thinking about how to handle this. I think it's good that I can see the anxiety and rationalise it, that helps. And depending on when it happens I may well go away. I've got cctv internal coverage and insurance so that makes me feel safer. Also I've been trying to swap this place for a smaller flat near the sea and that was difficult because most of the fittings (doors, windows, cupboards, etc) dated back to the 1960's, so there are many positives. The waiting doesn't help with the anxiety but does give me time to plan.

I have got some challenges coming up. The reason I'm very wary of toxic chemicals and substances is I used to work as an analytical chemist and about 20% of the work involved determining if samples, including air samples with asbestos fibres, were reaching harmful to humans levels. I'm having a new kitchen fitted but the team that do that won't touch it until another specialist team have been in and removed all the asbestos. This is the high risk old asbestos sheeting that I've been very careful to keep sealed away and not touch. I really would like to go away while that is done but that means leaving my keys with the contractors. It seems that the council have decided to remove anything containing asbestos even the low risk stuff in my bathroom. So I will get to talk to two specialist surveyors who will examine both rooms, will have the latest information and then two different specialist teams will carry out the work. I imagine they will do a good clean up but I can also see me in a mask and overalls having to really do a deep clean. I also spoke to an advisor about having a CT scan of my lungs as part of the screening programme. One of the questions for eligibility, 'have you ever come into contact with any asbestos?'. I know it's a good idea to have the CT scan as early diagnosis gives me a best chance with treatment, but it also means more radiation blasts. I can feel my anxiety about both scenarios growing but know also that it's better to get both things done in the long run.

@Handy So it sounds like ocpd is more embedded if it's part of a person's personality and although I'm not keen on labels it does sound more like my personality. And I don't see; perfectionism, order, cleanliness as a problem. Perfectionism only become a problem when I expect others to attempt it. Thanks Handy, I'll have to look into this more, it could explain why I don't see my personality traits as a problem (as long as they don't get out of control-some irony there) but as something I work with rather than fight against or aiming for something called 'normal'. But like you say there is some possible overlap and treatments are the same.

Yes but I have the same ocd obsessions with cleaning and contamination, but as I say it's a matter of degree. Three hours for one room is too much and particularly if the OP(and I don't know this) is spending that long because she is cleaning the same things repeatedly. Its usually when I'm stressed that I go over the top.(something I must look into, relatonship between stress-cortisol levels - anxiety).

I think that's the standard ocd response but I disagree. Cleaning, organizing and symmetry whether it's in our local environment or in our lives generally can make us feel comfortable. It's all a matter of degree. The OP's three hour sessions are probably too much but it depends on factors like size of property, amount of possessions, state of cleanliness, etc. I can pretty much deep clean a normal sized room in about an hour and being organised and having some symmetry makes me feel comfortable long term.

Actually one of my concerns about smartphones is that they lead to a sort of dependency(I still haven't put a sim in mine, my internet landline seems to collect scammer calls and I use my old mobile to ring/text people for meet up). @Kcbell92 I think in your first paragraph you are almost getting it right, but you don't need to take an all or nothing approach with friends,> 'if they don’t come through the second time if it’s planned, that’s when I’ll straight out just end the connection with them and won’t do anything more with them'. Just as you say be more relaxed about it. You can't control what other people do and what they do may be no reflection on you at all. When I said try to see things from other people's perspectives, I of course meant from your friends perspectives. The more chilled out you are the less they will see your apparent dependency as a responsibility that they need to make up an excuse to get out of.

Yes it's like his personality is exhibited in that garden and cottage. It looks straight out onto a shingle beach and the sea. I think Maggi Hambling has really caught his humanity in the eyes. Also I was looking at some of her other paintings and they remind me a bit of Auerbachs. Thanks for the Courtald info. I had a look around yesterday and will return. I like having the gallery to myself. It opens up whole new possibilities. I did a virtual tour of the Louvre a while ago and one of those 360 degrees boat tours of Venice. Here's a really simple sculture, inspired by Japanese minimalism and constructed using six dice to determine length, angle, connection points, etc. There's supposed to be some interplay between the two and the shadows.(I still remember the tutor's disparaging remark>'okay so you can stick two dowels together now what!'. The students liked it and knew I was referencing The Diceman.

I'm picking up on this because as you no doubt know the government is trying to dismiss the mental health problems of young people and there is a right leaning media attempt to dismiss the real concerns of those with; anxiety, depression, ADHD, etc. But consecutive governments created these very mental health problems. Firstly there is the legacy of mental health problems going back generations. If a grandparent or parents aren't given the help they need then their mental health problems perpetuate and become exacerbated down through the generations. A depressed, withdrawn parent affects the mental health and development of their children. I think the UK took a long time to recognise the need for mental health support and therapy. People can see a physical health problem but don't always take mental health problems as seriously and often helping people is time consuming and costly. As we know there is a serious lack of funding for mental health services and the longer people have to wait, can dramatically alter how quickly they can recover. Consecutive governments created an unregulated financial sector with led to the crash, and their solution was bailouts for the financial sector and austerity across so much of the social sector and health sector. It leads to hardship for many and subsequent effects on their mental health. And the government let us all down during the pandemic but most hit were children and young peoples' mental health.

It relatively quiet around here at present so hopefully people are enjoying the good weather and the renewal of energy that comes with spring. I really enjoy seeing all the bloooming trees, flowers and bird songs, makes me glad to be alive out there I think I was set as an outsider before I was even born. I always felt at odds with my family and their expectations. That's why getting a motorcycle was so great, my life went from family in a small town, to a 50 miles radius and soon afterwards driving down the coast of France. Freedom from my family. I think people like me who are 'Living with ocd' just don't know any different. I over thought because I couldn't understand why my family treated me the way they did and the ocd gave me localised control. (Turned out my parents were forced to marry because of my mother becoming pregnant unwed and they somewhat resented me for that). I posted the Dr Who theme just to indicate that you were absorbing early sound experimentation from tv shows and films. Sci Fi not only tried to imagine future tech but also tried to incorpoarte future sounding music and sound effects from experimental foley, tape loops and early synthesisers. Have you come across these Tibetan singing bowls>

@Kcbell92 I think it might help if you can start to see things from other peoples' point of view. Also on here several of us have offered you different ways of thinking about your concerns but you don't seem to incorporate those. I think firstly you should be thankful that your friends still talk to you. You also with your friends and on here seem to be displaying a form of dependency. If you can see that from another persons perspective it equates to responsibility. Going back to the title of your thread> I think when we are young we are co-existing with our families and they are a major part of our lives. Later we are co-existing with partners and they are a major part of our lives. But it's also important to enjoy the time we have alone(I believe it's good to have a balance during life between the two states) where we don't have to compromise, can enjoy our total freedom and become indendendent.

I don't know much about this, but at certain times in our lives we question different parts of our identity. It happens for many people in their twenties when they are trying to decide who they are, and through that questioning they come to some sort of establishing of their identity that makes them feel more comfortable with themselves and who they are and want to be. I say it happens in our twenties because often then we are freed from conforming to family or peer expectations and we can decide who we are. It may also happen at different points in our lives when some event makes us question who we are and what we are doing. So I think it's a natural process that we all participate in, but if you throw ocd anxiety and doubts into the mix it can all seem a bit confusing and daunting.

A few things I've been thinking about (and as always just my opinion, open to debate). I think some people build ocd up into something bigger than it is, as RC writes, 'they see it as an enemy to be fought'. They seem to exaggerate it's power and almost disassociate it from themselves which in many ways empowers it. I now and in line with Rose Cartwright's personal journey to healthy living see it as a 'matrix condition' or as she puts it a 'biopsychosocial model'. So, (and we've talked about this), we have to see it in it's full context; genetic predisposition, family history, personal history and our exposure to environmental/social/political factors that impact on our lives. In effect that our mind is shaped by and reactive to our environment throughout our lives. I also wonder if ocd becomes just another obsession itself. As RC says she co-opted the language of medical professionals and came to define herself through those terms. So after therapy it's important to break free of all that and start living. (actually I've always felt like I was living in some sort of survival mode which goes back to childhood).

I looked into Stomp a bit more. I hadn't realised what a phenomenal success it had become in America. It made about $100M from ticket sales which is wild to me as I remember a few guys just busking and banging out rhythms outside a pub. A few of the students at uni had various health conditions which they explored in their art and it always added a sense of poignancy and power to their work. There's a cabin down in Dungeness which I've visited a few times(I lived nearby). It was Derek Jarman's Prospect cottage with a garden and I would consider it an artwork in it's own right. I got to see some of the interior art for the first time yesterday(in online newspaper). Here is one he made about the AIDs virus. All the medication he had to take each day. Also a painting of him by Maggi Hambling.

It's not an easy question to answer. I suppose it depends on many factors like what level of cleanliness do you feel you require to feel comfortable. If I notice; dust, dirt and grime, I start to feel uncomfortable and actually enjoy cleaning it all up. I think I clean thoroughly on a regular basis, which in say one room involves hoovering every surface starting high up with ledges, tops of doors and work my way down to the carpet. I then wipe every surface with a damp clean cloth. But that may be too much for most people. It just makes me feel comfortable. Maybe instead of 3 hours, limit yourself as @comfortscorned suggests and the timer is a good idea. Using moisturiser every day helps. I'm also trying to make my place easier to clean; white walls(I know but they do look clean) and trying to have as minimal decor as possible.

I think it's part of my personality. I delude myself that I'm some sort of radical outsider. All my friends were into rock bands and electric guitars so although I enjoyed some of that I was drawn to electronic music and experimentation. I used to do all that with cassette tapes and mini disks. I would slow one sound down until it sounded like the wind blowing. It is a very obsessive process; creating sounds, editing(over and over again), finding samples(films, documentaries, news), layering on multiple tracks, etc and slowly building something. It's much easier on the PC these days. I have this idea that it's good to find a focus if we have an obsessive nature. Here's Delia's most famous piece based on a Rob Grainer minimal score.(I'd forgotton about the irreverent Mrs. Merton) (I know this is a forum for mental health support, but it is great to have a section that celebrates culture and is a great distraction).

I think turning up to the DWP with a visual diary, they'd find interesting. I have been looking at how people express ocd through art and film. I hadn't seen those Stomp videos. I wonder how they convinced whoever books acts to put it on. 'We come on stage with some brooms..........'. I'm not sure how I'd describe it, sort of urban rhythmic tribal performance art. A friend and I recorded the performance at the festival and if you look up in the Brooms video those are all the objects they created rhythms on; old car doors, metal road signs, etc.......basically found urban junk. I was thinking that's how I'm going to do my cleaning from now on, inject some contagious building rhythms (Strangely enough I removed Adobe flash a few weeks ago. I'm sure it was causing problems).

I think children are incredibly smart and one approach as well as what snowbear suggests could be; just be honest with your children. Explain that your wife has started to get over anxious about germs and contamination. I'm sure they will be aware of this and may be even be joining in to support and reassure her. So rather than trying to protect your children from wife's anxiety about germs, ask them to help you to try and help your wife. So for example with the trainers/ i pad, explain to your children that it would help your wife if your eldest child wore the trainers and used the i pad. That by doing that they would help your wife realise that nothing bad happened and no one got ill because they acted normally. (In reality we need a certain amount of exposure to germs because that helps strengthen our immune systems, but I'm not sure if they are old enough to grasp that yet).

Yes I do like the Unthanks, simple and complex with the voices harmonising and also being able to hear their accents. I'm glad I guessed the band, it was sort of whirring away somewhere in the back of my mind and yes they produced some good music. I think it was the BFI archive they got to raid for samples. I like it that young fans now get to hear about Gargarin and Spitfires and all the other historical events they reference. Samples of astro/cosmonauts are common. As I'm sure you know; some of the early pioneers of electronic sounds were Delia Derbyshire at the BBC and Daphne Oram. How British is this>

^I particularly like the first photograph, it really captures the space. A sort of majesty. Looking at the roof and knowing the Normans were originally Vikings, it looks like the inside of one of their boats. (my ancestors were Normans, they had a big influence here and in France).

Yes I think a large part of managing ocd is keeping our stress levels low. I had a quick research and you'll be okay(unless you're an antonly joking of course). It only causes minor problems if you ingest a fair amount and any you breathed in will naturally be expelled by your body.

I do have similar contamination issues and on the same day you posted this had exactly the same issue. I always wipe my whole computer down before using it(dust and sweat issue), but especially the mouse and KB(I even clean with damp paintbrush between the keys). It's only me that touches it but I don't even like my own sweat from the day before. I think I must have got some lip balm on my fingers and spread that on the keys. But I just stopped, washed my hands and wiped the keys. I'm now trying to only wipe the PC down every two days instead of everyday. I was scubbing my hands so much at one point, they bled, but I have managed to minimize that as well. Plus I use moisteriser these days. With external contamination, I handle that by just washing my hands when I return home, and I'm careful not to touch my face when I'm out. So I set limits on what I can tolerate, do that and try not to get anxious. I think that's all you can do, try to reduce your rituals until they are as minimal as you can tolerate. I have had these contamination issues for so long that I really don't know anything different. I also try not to get worked up about it because that would lead to more anxiety and overthinking. You mention concerns about your future child picking up on your concerns. I did notice my son doing that at one time and just by pointing it out and saying that's just something I do and you don't have to, he quickly became aware of what not to copy. Also his mother was the complete opposite and now he has no ocd issues so I think children can distinguish between 'necessary' and 'unnecassary' actions themselves because they can differentiate and having two parents helps that. And I found I could reason with my son by the time he was three years old.

Interesting article in the Guardian today by Rose Cartwright. I find that my understanding of ocd ever evolving, like I pick up ideas on this forum that create a sort of rolling insight as each person adds their story. Rose Cartwright has on her own journey talked to many people from mental health professionals to tribal healers and also wrote Pure, which she also helped to adapt to a tv show. She tried therapy both traditional and underground using psychedelics and MDMA. Some of her thoughts echo my present understanding; 'This is what is wrong with the medical model: a failure to understand mental health in context'. 'The insight my ego had been protecting me from was that my mental health was not separate from my family’s'. 'The medical model had taught me everything about being ill, and almost nothing about being a healthy, well-adjusted grownup, who has a sense of agency and accomplishment, whose relationships are infused with trust that reaches right down to the bones, heart, lungs, tummy'. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/13/i-was-the-poster-girl-for-ocd-then-i-began-to-question-everything-id-been-told-about-mental-illness