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Guest Learning2bCalm

Ocd attacking what i held most sacred?

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Guest Learning2bCalm

Okay.

I don't want to go into this one in too much depth because i think it will bore people. Basically it's ongoing obsessive thoughts about the nature of life......about nature and the universe.

Science has taken away our Gods (well for those who believe it, no offense here guys), our importance in the universe.......

and i could cope with all of that because i thought the world and nature was a beautiful place. I could get up every morning because the world was so beautiful, no matter what bad stuff was going on i could always be inspired by the trees, roses, the stars, etc.......

Suppose i saw something divine in nature (even though i'm not conventionally religious).

(if anyone else feels like this perhaps you should stop reading now)

Then i come across theories about nature that suggest it's far from divine. Game theory and Selfish Gene theory, suggesting that all of life is out for itself and even coperative behaviour is an attempt to meet selfish drives.

So i spend lots of time in compulsive activity, looking for evidence that there is something inspiring or 'good' about nature....so i can look at the world again with the awe i once had......

So i have a reason to do anything at all......

sorry to be so negative, but this is what i'm dealing with.

The Treatment:

* tell myself that all of nature is inherently selfish, out for itself, there is nothing inspiring about nature.....and refuse to engage in compulsive activity

* get up in the mornings even though there doesn't seem to be any reason......

Thing is, i've had other obsessions that seem to have a scientific basis behind them. i got really obsessive about mad cow disease once (rather apt! :grin: ) and refused to eat anything that came from a cow! I was convinced the whole country was going to break out in symptoms.........some scientists even said so........

but it hasn't happened. Most people are genetically protected i've heard.

perhaps these scientific theories of life and nature will turn out not to be entirely true........but somehow i've got to live through this time believing that they are true.....all the while wondering how everyone else can carry on in the face of such information.

Sorry to go on like this. it probably sounds really mad :thumbup:

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You are definitely not alone on this one. The nights I have spent in bed staring at the ceiling wanting rip my hair out with these questions are inconceivable. It mostly begins with my fear of death and spirals out of control. I start to have a panic attack because I've analysed it until it can't be analysed anymore which is the most frustrating part of it all, to me. The what if's of these obsessions never end.

And it seems to me that the only way I can get past it is if I just cry and I cry and cry until I fall asleep. I've usually forgetten about it by morning but it will pop up only when I extremely depressed.

Weird how intellectual and profound OCD'ers think. I'm always fascinated by the ideas I come up with and those I hear from other fellow sufferers.

Try to have a good one and remember you are not alone! :thumbup:

Lily

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Also, I'm not religious at all (but very spiritual) and that bothers me. I suspect it is my brain suggesting that maybe I am agnostic, but that's another story for another time and a profound statement for me personally that I could go on and on and on and on about... :thumbup:

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Guest Learning2bCalm

Thanks Lilyelspeth!

I'm surprised to have got a response actually and to hear you say you over analyse similar stuff is reassuring.

I suppose what i need to know is what CBT would advise........

also whether there's anything written on these kinds of ruminations.....

and lastly, how do people live in the face of certain information, that goes against what we value and live by? In other words why did most people continue to eat beef when there was a BSE scare? I thought it was just that they hadn't read up on the facts, so i would tell them what i'd read.......but it wasn't that, cos i still remember people munching on burgers while listening to (what i thought) were highly convincing facts......they'd end up just saying 'well i hope it's not true.' To which i would be thinking, 'but all the evidence is suggesting that is IS true!'

Same with this science stuff. I've tried to talk it through with my father, who's quite intellectual, but he just goes quiet, says he doesn't really know what the answers are and why does everything have to have a meaning? Sometimes i wish i lived with more intellectual people. There are probably people out there who've been through all this and could talk it all through with me and i would resolve it......but i am not in proximity with those people in my daily life.....

oh well i'm rambling again.......

So because i cannot talk it through with anyone, just have to find a way of ignoring the thoughts, or agreeing with them and continuing to live, grounding myself in practical living and not abstract thinking..... :(

How? and why?

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Hi, Learning2bCalm

I too have similar thoughts on the nature of existence. One of the ways I deal with these thoughts is to tell myself that science is not always right and that without nature there would be no science. Therefore, science is part of nature and in a way magical.

Moreover, the humans race continual evolution and discovery of new ideas, etc is all part of God's or the Gods plan.

Aristotle once said that 'In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.'

Take Care

Michael

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Guest Learning2bCalm
Hi, Learning2bCalm

I too have similar thoughts on the nature of existence. One of the ways I deal with these thoughts is to tell myself that science is not always right and that without nature there would be no science. Therefore, science is part of nature and in a way magical.

Moreover, the humans race continual evolution and discovery of new ideas, etc is all part of God's or the Gods plan.

Aristotle once said that 'In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.'

Take Care

Michael

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Thanks for your reply Michael!

yep one thing i told myself was that science is not always right. it's hard to do that with this latest obsession becasue it seems right.....but with the last one, the BSE thing, it turned out that science was a bit premature in thinking we would all develop CJD.....it was more complicated than that......so i suppose this latest 'issue' of mine might be the same.........

I always agreed with Aristotle! :grin:

I like your point that without nature there would be no science....and certainly our inquiring minds suggests something deeper than just selfish interests. I want to be a part of something wonderful, but for the purposes of inspiration rather than selfishness.....for a reason to get up in the morning and follow the wonderful plan....... :(:D

Thanks for taking the time to respond, i'm sure half of this problem with me is that there is no one in my circle that i could even begin to talk to.....

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Perhaps we are all part of something wonderful....just that scientists haven't got round to quantifying/validating it as yet.

The potential for electricity say, existed back in the 1100's....tell anyone that back then and you'd have been on the ducking stool....it's potentiality still existed, it just hadn't been discovered as to what set of circumstances, conditions etc were necessary for it to be.

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Guest Rustynut

Hi Learning2bCalm,

I too have thought long and hard about life the universe and everything. I am afraid I didnt come to any definite conclusions - mabey cos there arnt any! :)

One of my friends who is very religious believes that the world WAS made in 7 days and the earth is less than 10,000 years old (he has calulated it down to an exact date -cant remember which though).

Some scientists on the other hand think they have the answers to it all (as if!). I think there are more questions than answers whichever way you come with the questions there will always be more.

Sorry to ramble, but what I am trying to say is that you can belive what you want to and whatever anyone says your views are as good as theirs. Yes nature is awesome and everybody is unique and so is our planet - dont let ANYBODY tell you otherwise.I'm sure even Ronald MacDonald is unique to the earth (I hope so anyway :lol2: ) Even Stephen Hawking only has theories not definite answers and some of them are a BIT wild.

Hope that helps a bit and I hope I dont start worrying that I've made things worse (Curse this ocd)

Best Wishes

Rustyn

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Guest Learning2bCalm

Caramoole and Rustyn!

thanks for listening and responding guys! You both helped a lot, not made it worse.....really it couldn't get any worse......

I think i'm realising that searching for some inspirational piece of literature on the subject won't help. Where there is inspiration i don't believe it anyway.....so this must just be a big new year compulsion.

Am i right to do exposure and response prevention on this do you think? i know you can only give your opinons.....

It just seems that i'm not going to find any theories that satisfy me when looking for them. That partly reflects the nature of science but also my obsessionality.....

i'll stick with the thought that science doesn't have all the answers and that i've done this before on a different subject and eventually got over it and i will get over this.

thanks for listening

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Guest idntw

Would it also help to think of the science behind life, and our natural human view and experience of life, as separate realities that are both true? For instance, a beautiful solid oak table with a bowl of roses on it is only something made up out of atoms - ultimately it can be described purely in terms of chemistry and physics that are quite neutral when it comes to, say, purpose or beauty. This is quite true. But at the same time, it's equally true that it's a beautiful, smooth, table, with a lovely grain to the wood gleaming in the sunlight, and with a bowl of gorgeous smelling roses on it, which has a use, and a purpose, and was made by someone - something good added to the world. This is as true as the atomic view of the table - it's our experience of the bowl, and it's real.

I tend to feel the same way about evolution and life. An awful lot can be explained in terms of what might make genes 'successful', but that doesn't take away the reality of life as witnessed and experienced by life itself, and a kind of complexity that the gene view doesn't explain. (Although I do find the gene view beautifully elegant and inspiring in itself, as well, in the sense of finding it amazing what life can do to build itself, iykwim.)

I hope I haven't made it worse :( I've been pondering posting this since your first post, because I felt the 'truth' you were telling yourself that you should accept there is no inspiration in nature was very harsh, in that I don't feel there is necessarily a forced choice between the scientific view and inspiration. But I am aware that different people mean different things by inspiration and what seems inspiring to me just might not cut it for anyone else. In which case please just ignore this and move on to the next post, and I'm very sorry :(.

In any case, I think you're doing the right thing thinking of science not having all the answers, both because all theories change and evolve, and because a single answer is only relevant to one question, and in fact there are all sorts of different questions that can be asked equally relevantly about the world (in the same way that a table is at the same time both a collection of atoms and a beautiful human-made thing with a value, history and place in the world that simply cannot be explained by an atomic view - both are true answers to the question "what is this?").

I.

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Hi all,

I do also suffer from the profound what is the meaning of life thing a lot. However, mine is more to do with the nature of society and what is the point of trying to do anything positive because in the end all the bad people will win anyway! I work with children and I sometimes wonder what the point is of trying to protect them when they are eventually going to go into the world and get hurt and s*** upon anyway! I seem to spend loads of time analysing society and the way it works to the point where it makes me so angry and wound up - how wierd! Drug dealers and users are my current pet hate - to an obsessional level. I have to say though that I had never really related this to ocd - and you were right, us ocd-ers do seem to be quite an intellectual and profound lot! Does anyone else get these kind of 'What is the point' thoughts?

brainstrain :(

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Hi all,

I do also suffer from the profound what is the meaning of life thing a lot.  However, mine is more to do with the nature of society and what is the point of trying to do anything positive because in the end all the bad people will win anyway!  I work with children and I sometimes wonder what the point is of trying to protect them when they are eventually going to go into the world and get hurt and s*** upon anyway!  I seem to spend loads of time analysing society and the way it works to the point where it makes me so angry and wound up - how wierd!  Drug dealers and users are my current pet hate - to an obsessional level.  I have to say though that I had never really related this to ocd - and you were right, us ocd-ers do seem to be quite an intellectual and profound lot!  Does anyone else get these kind of 'What is the point' thoughts?

brainstrain :)

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Hi brainstrain :) If i am having a low day i can have thoughts along the same lines as you,i look after my niece and nephew every week and think to myself when having these thoughts,yes as they get older they will see the reality of the world we live in for themselves but i am going to do my fairshare and contribute to them to protect them from the harsh realities and to ensure they have what quite a few kids miss out on, a childhood.

I also tell myself when feeling like that,at least just now i can contribute and enable them to develop so yes when they see what society is really like,they will be able to cope with harsh realities and feel that they can still live life to the full and be whoever they want to be.

By making a contribution so they will be able to cope as an adult and enjoy life and ensuring they have a childhood,i feel at least there is a point to me protecting them :( .Thinking it through like this helps to banish the whats the point thoughts. :(

You are not alone :( ,one of my pet hates is rude people,people who have no manners.I mean it really cracks me up :( ,i never used to relate this to the ocd,until i learned more about what ocd can really entail.You are right,we do seem to be an intellectual lot,i think its cos our brains never stop and we are constantly thinking!!!!

It is difficult but when feeling like that i try to put things into perspective,and realise that no matter how small a contribution it is we are making to society,ie working with kids,voluntary work,giving to charity,bringing up our own kids,etc ,the main point is we are making that contribution to make lives easier for others,trying to make the world a bit of a better place. :D

We are actively doing this and for that we should be proud of ourselves :) .I mean when your working with children and every time you praise a child,your are boosting that childs self esteem and conifidence and that is a great thing and will make a difference to that childs life. :) .So,no matter how bad the world may seem we are at least actively trying to make it a better place which can only be considered a good thing!!!!

Take care and you are not alone with this. :)

Love ittykxxx :)

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Guest traze

That was absolutely beautiful what idntw said about the table. I could really imagine it - I am in awe :)

I agree that some people don't seem to think about things, just get on with their lives. I rarely watch the News and don't often get a paper. The media seems to

play on the negative stuff -sometimes you really feel horrible just reading it.

I have (almost) given up trying to read the paper and eat because of the stories

about violence, pictures of grief etc. I don't think it helps me to enjoy my food and I don't think it helps the people affected either. I don't think this is selfish, just survival. You don't see many stories about the good things happening, it is just not newsworthy. There are lots of good people doing amazing things sometimes, mostly doing the best they can, it's not news.

I used to worry (when a teenager) about the vastness of space. I mean it's huge, unimaginable really, and we are so tiny in comparison. It all seemed so insecure that it made me feel anxious. Developing my spiritual belief system helps me to stop feeling overwhelmed by it all. I have learned to try to be more 'in the now', not focussing on space or the awful things happening in the world but on the roses on the table or being with the children in the park. Tiny small things which can seem insignificant but really the present moment is all we have. And moments can make a difference to someones life - somebody with a kind word at the right time can effect you for years. And ripples go out, effecting others in positive ways. So, we can make a difference and we are important.

One quote I heard is 'if you ever think you are too small to make a difference, you obviously have never been in a room with a mosquito'. :grin:

I hope this helps.

All the best

Traze

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Guest knock3times

Hi Learning2bCalm :)

I'm a yokel by nature, female kind of John Denver if you like...believe in the power and the beauty of nature but like you have come to see how selfish creatures including human's are...how everything can come down to a base level of pure survival...

...is love really a romantic thing? or nature recognising an appropriate mate with which to propgate the species? is basically where my thinking got down to, my answers eventually led me back to nature being beautiful but even if I'm wrong, even if love is a trick to get us to procreate what a heck of a lovely trick :)

I wonder how much my son will like me when he grows older, and how much will I like him? I love him more than my life right now and for him I can not be wrong , well, not much, just at times when the playstation is banned for a while :crybaby:

How much of his love for me is basic need for survival? how much of my love for him is protection of the vulnerable element of the species? whatever the answer may be I see there are always two sides to the coin and I choose the bright side...why my love for him, and his for me exists I do not know (heck we damaged the world enough with what we know I don't think we have anymore big answers coming our way yet :crybaby:) I am just happy I have had the beautiful feeling of a life growing inside of me and watching this baby become a young boy :crybaby:

when I question whether we are a scientific accident, the big bang etc or whether there is a higher force even if that force be only nature and not some deity I look at pictures of tropical fish, of particularly spectactularly marked flowers or animals and figure no, this is no accident

so, yes, nature is cruel, we are cruel, but we are also all very beautiful, we have to be balanced, there has to be a general balance with this world or we would fall off our axis, literally! lol :)

If you want to remember the beauty of nature go try some John Denver lyrics, especially the mid '70's stuff...and especially the stuf he co-rote with a guy called Joe Henry, that will remind you of how you used to feel :)

nature does what it does to keep itself going, so do we, we are both powerless and powerful at the same time, keep a balance, and you won't fall over :)

* tell myself that all of nature is inherently selfish, out for itself, there is nothing inspiring about nature

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Guest Learning2bCalm

I am amazed by all the wonderful and well thought out responses to my thread! You guys have really given this some thought. Thankyou so much! :)

It's actually nearly 1am, i've been out all day with a friend, to try to break my thinking patterns and i've ust arrived home. So i will respond more tomorrow.....for now, thankyou! and i have read every post!

until later..... :)

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