snowbear

I hope that in spite of everything you had a VeryBlue. Now that you're in the over-50s club, have you thought about joining our monthly support group specially for those who are 50 plus? Next meeting is on Wednesday 10th April at 6pm. You can register for the meeting here (Scroll to the themed group information at the bottom of the page.) The meetings take place via Zoom, and if it's your first time you need to register for a Zoom account as well as the meeting. I can look up the thread for you with the instructions on how to do that if you're interested.

I open my front door once a week for an hour and never open any windows, and I've not suffocated in 20 years of doing that! The idea that the carbon dioxide levels have significantly built up in an hour is all in your head. Humidity levels may be on the rise, making it feel hotter and less 'airy', but your anxiety is based on the self-talk and faulty belief you have that the CO2 levels have increased significantly. Negative self-talk is often fuelled by anger and resentment, and you do seem resentful of your neighbours and their chimney. Fair enough, but be aware that your thinking (the window has to be opened/ I have to suffer because of the neighbours) is emotional reasoning and not fact. Sometimes just taking that step back and recognising that we are thinking emotionally (and not rationally) can be enough to settle the anxiety and prompt a change in our compulsion-driven self-talk. Give it a go and see how you get on.

The point I was making in my last post is you think you would fall apart, go into non-existence on the sofa etc. Just as I was 100% convinced that if my worst fear happened that I would kill myself. I told myself so every day. Reinforced the idea that I'd have to die every time the possibility came up. Because I 'died' the first time around. Went into a fugue state for 3 years, floating behind my left shoulder watching 'her' going through the motions of living. But it was just a compulsive thought. Same as for you the idea that you would automatically go into non-existence because that's how you coped before is just a compulsive thought. Every time you think about how you'd cope and conclude yet again that you'd end up back on the sofa - that's performing a compulsion. A compulsion that feeds the OCD and reinforces the belief that the only possible solution is non-existence. So that's the bit of thinking you need to change. Start telling yourself, 'Even if the unimaginable worst happens, I'll cope. ' For now, don't even try working out how you'd cope, or think about how you'd be feeling - those are compulsions too. They're compulsively trying to find answers and certainty to something that hasn't actually happened (and might never happen.) You can't have certainty about your future no matter how much you want it. Like it or not, we all have to accept that. Any 'certainty' about what the future will be like and how you'll feel is an illusion. A figment of your imagination. A projected hypothesis with no more validity than hypothesising you're going to be the first person to live to 1000 years old. So start telling yourself, 'Whatever happens, I'll cope!' You don't even have to believe it at first, just as long as you stop telling yourself 'I'll go into non-existence' Stop trying to predict your future feelings. When you feel you're starting to get a handle on the idea that nobody can predict their future and we absolutely certainly can't predict our feelings and responses to that unknowable future - then book the appointment with the neurologist. At that point you'll be able to go to the appointment thinking 'Whatever happens I'll cope! Which is a huge step forward from where you're at now - just as afraid, telling yourself your life would be over, and stuck in limbo as a result. Developing the resilience you need starts by changing what you tell yourself. Simple as that. Quit the compulsive negative self-talk, and replace it with a 'Don't know, will find out when I get there, time will tell, I'll cope whatever' philosophy.

Exactly

Obviously the ideal is not to be a perfectionist and not to give in to OCD's demands at all. Wouldn't life be easy if it we could always and instantly do what's ideal! But you're struggling with that So let's look for a compromise between the ideal (let it go without further ado) and where you're at now (wanting perfection) Maybe it would help to define what you mean by 'perfect'. The definition of 'perfect' varies hugely from one person to the next. No two people ever picture 'perfect' in exactly the same way. So another way to define it is wanting things to be exactly as you have pictured them in your head. Looked at in that way, it becomes clear that 'perfect' isn't some natural state you're trying to achieve. It's not clearcut or universal. It's wanting the result to look exactly like how you've previously imagined it. How you imagine things in your head isn't reality. It's just a mental image. It's as easy for your brain to change as doctoring a photo can be altered by computer software. So rather than spending thousands trying to match the reality of the garden with some random image in your head, why not simply change the image in your head to better reflect reality? Perfectionists are prone to something called 'Demand thinking' (one of the thinking distortions.) They spend a lot of time telling themselves 'It should look like the image in my head' it ought to be possible to have things exactly as I want them' and the real killer... I demand the world matches my definition of perfect and I won't accept anything less! Why 'should' I?' Which is as good as saying, Reality be damned. The world ought to accomadate my wishes and be just as I decree! (Yeah, right. ) Just think how many parallell universes we'd need to fulfill that wish if all 8 billion people on earth insisted that 'reality' was always exactly how they imagine it! So the problem here ( with the garden slab/ green door/ house/ any other thing you find 'imperfect' or feel uncomfortable about) isn't that it is 'imperfect.' The problem is that it doesn't match your pre-decided idea of what perfect looks like. The problem is that you have difficulty accepting anything that doesn't 100% match how you expect it/ want it/ imagined it to be. So you're not trying to get the world to be 'perfect'. You're just trying to match up two images - the one in your head and the one you can see with your eyes. Once you realise that, then it becomes easier to see why the pull to paint the door white or replace the slab is so strong: 1. Taking action is a way of feeling you control the situation because you're struggling to accept what you don't like 2. It's a struggle to reconcile reality and the ideas and beliefs that arise out of demand thinking. In other words, it's not just you! Anybody who believes the world 'ought' to work a certain way is going to struggle in life. The universe doesn't care a jot how you think things 'should' be. Reality is what it is. It doesn't bend to the whims and demands of any one individual. So if you were raised thinking the world revolved around you - or equally, if you were raised without your childhood needs being met when some of the world at least has to revolve around you for you to thrive - then that can carry over into adulthood. The result is a person who's still 'demanding' the world revolve around them, that reality looks exactly like they have defined it in their head - a 'perfectionist'. That understanding brings us to the next point - how to stop being a perfectionist. Let's go back to the two points above and look at what they have in common. Struggle to accept, struggle to reconcile. Both are the result of demand thinking. Life isn't hard and confusing because you're a thwarted perfectionist. It's hard and confusing because you apply demand thinking instead of acceptance thinking or non-judgemental thinking, or open-minded thinking. Any of those other thinking styles allows for the world to differ from your internal image and still be ok. The mismatch doesn't have to be fixed. Your survival isn't threatened because reality isn't exactly how you feel it needs to be for you to thrive. And of course the reason you feel so overwhelmed by the 'need' to fix things until they match your definition of perfect, is because it taps into your instinct for survival. Threaten our survival and we come out guns blazing, doors 'need' painted, paving slabs 'have' to be replaced. This is good news! Because we are always free to change which thinking style we use. And it's a LOT easier to change your thinking than it is to go through life trying to match reality to some image in your head. You can talk through how to change your thinking with a cognitive therpist, but just to get you started: - Listen to yourself. How often do you slip in 'ought/ should/ can be/ need to/ have to...' Change your inner dialogue. - Practise acceptance. Reality is what it is. Like it or not, we don't get a say in that. Nobody does! It might appear that some people 'get everything their own way' while your desires are thwarted and you have 'imperfection' thrust upon you , but that's an illusion (again just the result of thinking, how we interpret things, our expectations etc.) Practice being ok with things being slightly different to how you imaged them. It is just a matter of practice. And being willing to change your thinking slightly. And of course demand thinkers can struggle even with that. 'Why should I change the way I think, why can't the world change and just give me what I want!' Well, the answer is you don't have to change the way you think if you don't want to. You're free to carry on as you are - finding every day of life a struggle, full of continual disappointments and endless hardship. But if you choose to change your thinking, and you put in a bit of effort and practise - Life changes! WOW, does life change! (Speaking from personal experience.) 'Perfect' ceases to be one fixed pre-ordained idea in your head and broadens to embrace all kinds of wondrous variations and anomalies that bring you joy and contentment where once they brought only frustration and pain. Think you're ready to give it a go?

Leaving it was an option. But you chose the option of giving in to your OCD rather than the option of getting on with life and more important things. Keep that in mind when you come to the point of deciding how to proceed from here. It's your choice. Every time. Perfectionism is often a sign of emotional insecurity. Have you ever discussed in therapy how to tackle the (unhealthy) desire for absolute perfection, or how to make yourself feel safer emotionally so you don't feel such a strong need to control the world around you?

When my conservatory was built the builder got the floor tiling wonky. My perfectionist OCD desires were going crazy. All I could think about was that wonky line of grouting, how obvious it was, how I'd never be able to live with it, how it would drive me mad looking at it every day. All OCD. More than a decade on, I had forgotten all about the wonky grouting until I read your post. I've walked over it , looked at it, and not 'seen' it or thought about it at all in years! Telling yourself it is a huge problem and that it will drive you mad to leave it is a compulsion. It's OCD thinking. Talking to yourself that way makes the desire to 'fix it' seem like a much bigger issue than it actually is. Once you disengage from the thoughts and OCD perfectionist desire the 'issue' becomes a non-issue.

I'm not /we're not trying to undermine you. Your opinion is your opinion as as valid as the next person's. However, if I said to an OCD handwasher 'Germs can kill. Washing your hands is a good idea' that's certainly a 'different perspective' from the typical advice given on the forum, but does it help someone who's hands are bleeding a raw from over-washing them? How do you expect someone with a specific obsession to interpret what you say if you talk about that obsession as if it was a normal, valid concern? Can you see that therein lies the problem? To your mind it's taking a rational approach. To the person reading your advice it's saying 'Wash your hands more! Wear gloves! Take every precaution there is!' You and I know you don't mean that - of course you don't. But when a person is lost in their obsessive thinking and unable to step back and see it rationally, what you say can sometimes be interpreted as supporting their compulsions rather than coming across as a fresh perspective on their situation. Yes, that interpretation , that inability to see the wood for the trees, is the result of their OCD thinking, and that's the point. We're here to try to get people out of their OCD way of thinking. Trying to apply logic to a totally illogical thinking disorder doesn't help. When people ruminate on their obsessions they believe they are being rational. It sounds and feels totally rational to them to go along with their compulsions. That's why they do them! When for them the enormity of risk already feels completely real and rational, telling them that 'There is indeed a risk and sensible precautions should be taken' is like pouring petrol on the flames of their obsession. They naturally interpret 'sensible' to reflect their excessive, off-the-scale response. They are incapable of reining in that view to see it as you're seeing it, or to hear what it is you are actually saying. All they hear is 'The risk is real' and their reaction is OMG!!!! I do need to be careful and not expose myself to risks as the people on the forum have told me to do.' Fresh perspectives are always welcome. I'm just saying that we need to think about how the person reading it will likely interpret it, not just say verbatim how we see it ourselves. (I get it wrong a lot myself, Howard, not saying it's just you. Just try to think how the person reading it will 'read' it' when you share your 'alternative perspective', ok?

Yes, I agree - it's a self-protective thinking compulsion. I used to tell myself that if I was contaminated by human touch ever again that I would (have to) kill myself. I think deep down I always knew that was just me expressing how VERY VERY VERY distressing the idea of being touched by another human was. I think deep down I always knew that I'd find a way to 'get clean', to survive, to work around it. I think your 'non-existence' is the same sort of self-expression. A way of voicing (even if only to yourself) how totally abhorent and awful the dementia outcome feels to you, how much it terrifies you even to think it could happen, let alone how you'd deal with the reality. But when you label 'going into non-existence' as just a thought, not an actual destiny you would be compelled to inflict on yourself, then dealing with reality becomes a lot simpler and a lot less scary. So you get around it by accepting that totally terrifying as the thought might be, it is just a thought, a feeling, a fear - not an inevitability. Then you try to get some proportion back on your excessively strong emotional over-reaction. My over-reaction was anger and self-destruction, yours seems to be despair and giving up. Same difference, it's an emotional over-reaction way out of proportion to what reality requires. It's very hard having to admit to yourself that you've gone a bit overboard in your thinking and that what you genuinely feel is an over reaction. This is where we put our Big Girl Pants on, swallow our pride, and start trying to look at the unknown future in a calmer, less emotionally-driven way. Talking it through with your therapist should help. However excessive, off-the-scale and unnecessary your reaction has been, you need someone to validate the feelings you have experienced. Sometimes just getting a (metaphorical) hug of empathy and an 'OMG, that's so awful' validation is enough to help you regain perspective. You can of course be the one to give yourself that hug and verbal validation! Though it is nice to get it from another person. But once they've expressed empathy, and agreed with you that you've been put through hell and any sane person would naturally (over-)react as you did, then it's Big Girl Pants time again - working through those extreme feelings until you are more in control, thinking more rationally, and have regained perspective. Working through your feelings can again be as simple as talking about them, opening up. I mean really opening up - laying your feelings bare for the therapist to see, admitting to the therapist that yes, ok maybe you have been just a wee bit overly dramatic in your thinking etc Talking openly, and completely honestly, like this helps you to come to terms with the trauma you've endured and the emotions you've experienced. Recognising /admitting/ accepting that your thinking around this has been out of touch with reality helps to get your thinking back on track. At first you'll probably have to 'fake it til you make it' and keep telling yourself you'll be fine even though you sort of still believe it would be the disaster you have been imagining. But over time the more rational, more normal way of thinking about it sort of sinks in, becomes what you genuinely think and things get back into perspective. I think you've had a major breakthrough today in realising your 'non-existance' idea is a sort of compulsion. Good for you.

I'm with you on that, Bluegas. But you don't talk about it in a way that suggests you're simply taking back control. You talk about it in a very OCD-tinted way, Howard. The way you word it on the forum sometimes comes across as saying, 'The risk is real, therefore you're compulsive behaviours are justified and not in the least unwarranted or abnormal behaviour.' But telling someone whose behaviour and thinking IS way off track that there compulsions are indeed necessary is unhelpful to say the least. Worse still, it comes across that you too therefore perform a lot of compulsive behaviours, labelling them in your own head as 'justified and necessary precautions.' We'd be doing you a disservice if we didn't point out that your own thinking is somewhat distorted by your OCD.

I think we're getting too focused on the asbestos/ lead angle here instead of the faulty thinking around risk, avoidance and prevention. Talking about the chemicals and 'real' risk isn't going to help her get her thinking straight again. This isn't about risk, real or otherwise. It's about faulty thinking creating unnecessary and paralysing fear. We need to be talking about how to get past that fear and get on with life anyway, because that's what life is about. Avoidance isn't living. Let's try to stay on track and help OCD slave with her OCD folks, not get sidetracked by discussions on chemicals.

I think it might be pertinent to point out that Howard seems to be suffering from similar OCD fears to yourself, OCD Slave. Therefore you should take his advice with caution - same as someone with handwashing OCD should be cautious of taking advice from another handwasher who tells them that 'washing 50 times with lots of soap' is ok! I don't think many (any?) builders would wear gloves to do a bit of lead roofing replacement. The risk to ordinary minds is just too low to bother with unnecessary precautions. Actually, no. Your OCD rules aren't protecting you, they just help you to feel like you're protecting yourself. Seems is the operative word. Of course it seems justified when your thinking is warped in such a way that you spend 24/7 convincing yourself it's justified. Wouldn't/ doesn't seem justified to someone who isn't looking at it through your OCD lens. When trying to separate what's OCD from genuine / necessary concern, it's helpful to remember that much of what seems like genuine risk/ justified behaviour is actually OCD thinking and CD behaviour. When you get your thinking straight again, you too will see the 'risk' differently. Working on what issue exactly? That you care more for your family's wellbeing than your own? I'm not sure that's an 'issue'. Most parents probably care more about their children than themselves, that's normal. The issue you perhaps need to address is the line of thought 'impossibly dangerous'. That's catastrophic thinking, which is not normal. Forgive me, I can't remember - are you getting CBT at the moment?

I second that 100%. During a therapy session your therapist should be giving you their undivided attention. Answering messages on their phone is unprofessional and plain bad manners. Good advice from lookingforpeace on raising the issue at your next session. Definitely not too much to ask or expect!

What's stopping you?

How about not doing it? When the other residents aren't bothered it shows it is an OCD thing affecting you alone, rather than the slab needing to be replaced. So, you made it worse by trying to fix it. Not the first time somebody's done that in life and won't be the last! Trick is to stop trying to fix it, just leave it as is. Maybe every time you walk past it you could think, 'Remember this as a lesson in not trying to fix what doesn't really need fixing' rather than what you probably think when walking past it now (that's scratched, disaster! oh no, needs fixed, can't live with it...blah blah blah... ) Thinking those things is what keeps the feeling that somethings not right alive and kicking. Change the way you talk to yourself about it and the unease you feel will fade.

Hmm, thing is you're thinking of contaminants and hazards as tigers when those things are just shadows in the grass. The real tigers are your thoughts about the contaminants/ hazards - those are the things with big scary teeth that bite. Happily tigers are like ghosts. When you say ,' I don't believe in ghosts (tigers) they vanish! It's your belief that your worries are valid which keeps the tigers nipping at your ankles. Tell them you're not playing any more and they'll leave you alone.

Setting aside time to indulge compulsions is something suggested by a number of therapists, and it can help a beginner who really can't get their head around the idea of just not engaging with the thoughts at all, but it's not a 'recognised technique' in that it's not proven to help. Yup. That's the best thing to do because that's exactly what people without OCD do. I don't think by 'managing the thoughts' she means engage with them. Perhaps she's referring to how we can assess our thinking patterns, watch out for habitual thinking and default thinking, and then intervene to change those patterns to more healthy responses. 'Managing your mind' might mean something like mindfulness, or distraction, or changing your internal dialogue so that you don't engage with the thoughts. I wouldn't give up on her just yet. Next meeting you can say you've moved beyiond the beginner stage of using 'worry time' and want to get more help with non-engagement. Take it from there.

Hi Just_J, Sounds fairly normal to me. What made you wonder if it was OCD? Do you feel compelled to switch hobbies every so often?

You're messing about with medication Orange Juice, and that's a no-no. One minute you're trying to stop, then taking more, then taking a partial dose - your head's all over the place. Phone your GP and get proper advice - and please stop asking people on the forum for their opinion on what you should do with your meds. That's not a question we're qualified to answer.

You don't use ERP for this. ERP is where you exposure yourself to what is troubling you and then practise not responding. It's a deliberate exercise you do as part of changing your attitude and beliefs around the OCD worry. When you're already 'going round in circles' the thoughts are in your head most of the time and not responding is what you're finding most difficult. The simplest (and best) thing to do is get your mind onto other things by getting on with whatever you're supposed to be doing that day. Keeping both mind and hands occupied works better than just distracting your mind alone. You have to decide that you're not going to think about it any more. That sounds obvious, but it's not always so. A large part of you desires answers, feels certainty is essential etc. That part of you wants to ruminate! Really, really wants to keep ruminating, no matter how much distress going round in circles is causing. So you have to decide; I'm going to prioritise stopping this misery over answers and certainty. And then do it. Every time the thought(s) cycle round your head, demanding attention, you gently set them aside with a 'Not now. I'm not engaging with that worry any more.' Then you bring your thoughts back to the task at hand or something non-OCD you want to think about. Your mind will naturally keep prompting you with the OCD thoughts, so you decline to go there again, return to what you were doing. And again. And again. At first it might be as little as a minute or two before the worry recurs, but the more you set it aside in favour of something else the longer it will get between cycles, and eventually the worrying thoughts will stop popping up at all. Mindfulness can be very helpful with learning this technique. Think of your brain wanting to engage with the OCD thoughts like a puppy you're training to sit on a mat. When it bounces around and barks for attention and strays off the mat, don't get cross or upset. Just gently return the puppy to the mat, repeat 'Stay' (I'm not going to engage with this') and get back to what you were doing before. Then it's just a matter of practise, practise, practise until the puppy (your brain0 finally catches on to what it's supposed to be doing.

This is one of those very sensible, well-balanced posts that I'd love to bookmark and refer people back to. Sounds like you've had a good career as a Jack-of-Many Trades, McW.

Ok, let's get one thing clear from the start. Having thoughts that you're going to push people down the stairs or stab them is normal. It's not OCD. Obsessing that you might cause harm, worrying because you had the thought that you might push someone or stab them, and continuing to worry despite being told you don't need to - that's OCD. Your mum spoke to a priest, was reassured, and let it go. That's not OCD, that's normal. If she engaged with the memories when they occurred again - then maybe that might indicate OCD. But just to have the memories pop back into your head - that's 100% normal. What makes something OCD is how you respond to an intrusive thought. Not just having them. Everybody gets intrusive thoughts. It's normal, it happens often, it doesn't stress them out. They dismiss them with ease and don't give them any meaning. But if you respond to the intrusive thought by engaging with it, interpreting it as 'I thought it therefore I must intend/want/ like doing it' that's the start of the obsessive cycle. Then you're so horrified by the belief you might act on the thought that you do compulsions to try to ensure you don't act on it. And if you don't nip that obsessive-compulsive response in the bud then it can become full-blown OCD. Based on what you wrote here I can't say whether your mum has OCD or not. But from the way she dismissed the original 'harm' thoughts and wasn't bothered by them when they recurred - that suggests to me that she's responded in the way a normal-thinking person would rather than in the way someone with OCD would respond.

If it was normal thinking, you'd review the past, make a decision and move on. When it's OCD you go round in circles, never satisfied with the answers you get, never completely sure you've made the right decision - so you review it again, and again. Which does it sound like to you?

How do you 'deal' with it? Are you 'dealing' with it by neutralising or rationalising it to yourself? (Compulsions) There may be a clue in the way you respond that helps explain why it remains a recurrent problem. Good idea. Remember that you aren't seeing evidence. You're seeing something you interpret as 'evidence'. Very different things. OCD arises from the misinterpretation of thoughts and feelings. Thinking, 'Oh no, X got sick and that means I caused it' is you making an interpretation of something so that it seems connected when it isn't. There's probably also a lot of unconscious thinking (core belief stuff) going on... 'I caused harm therefore I ought to feel guilty.' And so you create the guilt you feel (and the anxiety) in order to bring about the expected / correct (according to my core beliefs) result! It can get very layered and complicated when we delve into our core beliefs and how they drive our responses. But it's a very worthwhile exercise to do. And though changing these ingrained thinking paths isn't easy, it's very, very worthwhile to give it a go!