Stop ruminating - an unhelpful demand (what do you advise?)

[Relinsky]

I had some people tell me, "Just choose to stop ruminating." I felt guilty that I couldn't "just stop", but I have realised it is just like saying, "Stop thinking about elephants." Obviously, the harder you try to stop, the more you find yourself doing it.

Has anybody else found the simple demand to "just stop" unhelpful? I am trying to learn HOW to stop ruminating, as thought suppression alone doesn't help. Any ideas?

[snowbear]

Hi Relinsky,

I agree. Saying 'Just choose to stop ruminating' is very unhelpful. 'Just' suggests that it's easy.   But it's not at all easy to do. It takes practise.

However, if we change the emphasis in the advice ...  'Just choose to stop ruminating' then it is helpful, because this is what you have to do in order to actually stop ruminating.

 

We often don't realise it, but rumination isn't an automatic process, nor is it outside of our control.    When we get drawn into the OCD arguments in our head, we're choosing to try to solve the problem/ try to stop the anxiety. At least part of you wants  to engage with / fix it. 

 

OK. So you take on board the message 'Don't engage with the thoughts' and your conscious intention is to do exactly that. 

Then you get an intrusive thought, and you fall straight back down the rabbit hole of the OCD cycle. 

We can compare it to making New Year resolutions - the good intention is there, but temptation is also strong.

If you make the choice a tug of war  between ruminating (do your best to solve the problem) and not ruminating (leave the problem unsolved)  then you'll always struggle.  

 

Happily, that isn't the choice you're asked to make through CBT. 

The choice is more like 'Do you prefer chocolate icecream   or strawberry icecream?'    It comes down which flavour you prefer in the moment.

So you might think, 'Chocolate reminds me of home, makes me feel safe - so I like the chocolate flavour.

But strawberry reminds me of summer holidays and freedom, and that makes me happy - so... I prefer the strawberry flavour.

 

Now, let's put that into therapy terms:

I value certainty, it makes me feel safe, so I put a high value on engaging with the worry and ruminating to try to find a solution.

But my life sucks and I'm miserable.   So I'm ready to put a higher value on freedom and happiness - to choose the don't engage, don't ruminate option.

Now it's no longer a choice between something you desperately want and something you don't really want but feel you ought to be good about and choose. It's a simpler choice between two options, both of which you like, but one you value slightly more because of the way it makes you think and feel.

It can be a close call between chocolate and strawberry, but as long as one flavour wins by a tiny margin it's choice made and your preferred  icecream is on its way to your tummy.

 

Behaviour is driven by our thoughts, feelings and values.

 

Instead of setting up a tug of war between 'want' and don't really want'   you make it a set of weighing scales   tipped in favour of what you value slightly more.

Apply the weighing scales / value  way of thinking and now when an intrusive thought pops into your mind the pull to engage is easier to resist. The desire to find answers/ ruminate is balanced by the desire to be happy again (in a way that doesn't demand answers before happiness.) You 'simply' want stop ruminating slightly more than you want to engage.

So you get an intrusive thought and instead of the no-win struggle you reply, 'No thanks, got better things to think about. Bye OCD! '   

You choose not to ruminate.

 

Does that help to make how-to-do-it clearer? (And being told to 'just choose' less frustrating!)

 

 

[Angst]

It seems to me that you ruminate in response to a thought. The thought is intrusive or disturbing to your well being. To stop rumination you need to dismiss the thought as not worthy of consideration. You nip in the bud the power of the intrusive thought before it grows in your mind.  I have found Theory A and Theory B helped me reduce the power of thoughts.  I am thinking of trying Aaron Beck’s idea of not allowing such thoughts to disturb me. That is why I have asked if anybody had tried the method of indicating Negative Automatic Thoughts. I imagine that some will say that by doing this you are focusing too much attention on the thought. But the technique is designed to reduce the potency of intrusive and disturbing thoughts to stop us mulling them over.

Edited March 21 by Angst

[snowbear]

17 minutes ago, Angst said:

To stop rumination you need to dismiss the thought as not worthy of consideration.

 Agree.

Another way of saying that is to place no value on the thought.

Which ties in with the advice to place a higher value on doing the things you want to do and a lower value on trying to problem solve or have certainty. 

 

22 minutes ago, Angst said:

 I have found Theory A and Theory B helped me reduce the power of thoughts.

Theory A/B works for some people and that's great! If it works for you, stick with it.

But for some the risk is 'Theory A or Theory B?'  itself becomes another unanswerable question, one more debate, more fuel for their compulsive ruminations.  

Particularly those who think the method is comparing  'This is a valid worry' with 'This is just an OCD worry.'  (Which is NOT the intention of using theory A/B.)

We can have valid worries that we have an OCD response to. It's the degree of the response that makes it OCD, not the validity or otherwise of the thoughts.

As long as they keep a clear focus on what Theory A and Theory B is actually about, then it's fine.

 

[Relinsky]

5 hours ago, Angst said:

It seems to me that you ruminate in response to a thought. The thought is intrusive or disturbing to your well being. To stop rumination you need to dismiss the thought as not worthy of consideration. You nip in the bud the power of the intrusive thought before it grows in your mind.  I have found Theory A and Theory B helped me reduce the power of thoughts.  I am thinking of trying Aaron Beck’s idea of not allowing such thoughts to disturb me. That is why I have asked if anybody had tried the method of indicating Negative Automatic Thoughts. I imagine that some will say that by doing this you are focusing too much attention on the thought. But the technique is designed to reduce the potency of intrusive and disturbing thoughts to stop us mulling them over.

Thank you. I don't know what Theory A and Theory B are, but I will look that up as well, and I will look up Aaron Beck.

[Relinsky]

6 hours ago, snowbear said:

Hi Relinsky,

I agree. Saying 'Just choose to stop ruminating' is very unhelpful. 'Just' suggests that it's easy.   But it's not at all easy to do. It takes practise.

However, if we change the emphasis in the advice ...  'Just choose to stop ruminating' then it is helpful, because this is what you have to do in order to actually stop ruminating.

 

We often don't realise it, but rumination isn't an automatic process, nor is it outside of our control.    When we get drawn into the OCD arguments in our head, we're choosing to try to solve the problem/ try to stop the anxiety. At least part of you wants  to engage with / fix it. 

 

OK. So you take on board the message 'Don't engage with the thoughts' and your conscious intention is to do exactly that. 

Then you get an intrusive thought, and you fall straight back down the rabbit hole of the OCD cycle. 

We can compare it to making New Year resolutions - the good intention is there, but temptation is also strong.

If you make the choice a tug of war  between ruminating (do your best to solve the problem) and not ruminating (leave the problem unsolved)  then you'll always struggle.  

 

Happily, that isn't the choice you're asked to make through CBT. 

The choice is more like 'Do you prefer chocolate icecream   or strawberry icecream?'    It comes down which flavour you prefer in the moment.

So you might think, 'Chocolate reminds me of home, makes me feel safe - so I like the chocolate flavour.

But strawberry reminds me of summer holidays and freedom, and that makes me happy - so... I prefer the strawberry flavour.

 

Now, let's put that into therapy terms:

I value certainty, it makes me feel safe, so I put a high value on engaging with the worry and ruminating to try to find a solution.

But my life sucks and I'm miserable.   So I'm ready to put a higher value on freedom and happiness - to choose the don't engage, don't ruminate option.

Now it's no longer a choice between something you desperately want and something you don't really want but feel you ought to be good about and choose. It's a simpler choice between two options, both of which you like, but one you value slightly more because of the way it makes you think and feel.

It can be a close call between chocolate and strawberry, but as long as one flavour wins by a tiny margin it's choice made and your preferred  icecream is on its way to your tummy.

 

Behaviour is driven by our thoughts, feelings and values.

 

Instead of setting up a tug of war between 'want' and don't really want'   you make it a set of weighing scales   tipped in favour of what you value slightly more.

Apply the weighing scales / value  way of thinking and now when an intrusive thought pops into your mind the pull to engage is easier to resist. The desire to find answers/ ruminate is balanced by the desire to be happy again (in a way that doesn't demand answers before happiness.) You 'simply' want stop ruminating slightly more than you want to engage.

So you get an intrusive thought and instead of the no-win struggle you reply, 'No thanks, got better things to think about. Bye OCD! '   

You choose not to ruminate.

 

Does that help to make how-to-do-it clearer? (And being told to 'just choose' less frustrating!)

 

 

Thank you. In some ways, this helps. I don't know how much yet, but I will see. My biggest issue is GUILT. I feel so guilty all the time, and I especially feel like if I spend the day ruminating that I am guilty and have ruined the day. So when I FAIL to choose to stop ruminating, that is when I feel the worst. I feel guilty because I have failed to do it. That's why being told I should be able to choose not to ruminate leads to so much frustration. I don't want to ruminate. I want to be happy. But that little voice keeps telling me I am guilty, so I keep trying to find relief from the guilt...but at the same time I know thinking about it doesn't make it better. It's all very confusing for me.

[PolarBear]

You can search on YouTube for How to Stop Ruminating by Dave Preston. Might help.