Why is there no meaning to existence?

[Ironborn]

What If ocd convinces you that the world is so bad, evil etc for your kids which you want to protect from harm that its trying to make you think that causing harm to your kids so they wont be able to go trough all the pain, sickness, sadness and even possibly get ocd or other mental disorders themselves?

 

The thought of hurting them gives me great amounts of anxiety and shivers, i don't have real intrusions about actual actions of harming them, but more constant thoughts i need to protect them, what even do we live for?

 

I also have existential ocd about nihilism and that Nothing matter's, we come to this earth, live and then we die without any purpose. Considering the universe we are so small and non existent so whatever we do, how we live if we live has zero meaning. 

 

I then try and convince myself that the meaning should be whatever you give it yourself. But what if I'm not possible in doing so, what if I'm looking for an external reason?

 

One that has been proven scientifically and with all respect not some kind of religion because no religion can be proven to be real by science.

 

This has been my new ocd theme after fighting it for over 8 years eith all diffrent kind of themes. But in this specific theme it feels like it cannot be disputed, because its actually 100% true that if you do not live you can not suffer, cry, feel pain or be tormented with mendal health issues.

 

Anyone here can shed a light on this?

[Sara OCD-UK]

I'm going to be as careful as I can not to give you reassurance Ironborn.   With your theme, the uncertainty may lie in not being able to accept the possibility that there isn't one big meaning to life, and allowing yourself to sit with that anxiety.  Knowing that the world is the way it is (good, bad and everything in between) and there is little we can individually do about it, and making the best of what the reality of our life is, with all the uncertainty that comes with that, could be the start of a way to break out of this cycle of thinking.  The more you ruminate over the meaning of life, the less you will feel certain of an answer.  

[Ironborn]

My kids will suffer in their life, heck they even suffer already. The oldest is sad because some Christmas party at school has been cancelled (he is 5 yrs old).

Him crying breaks my heart. Ive had a very similar type of obsession about a year ago, but this time it feels completely real and definitive.

 

I again feel convinced that suffering in any possible way is unnecessary especially because nihilism is running around on my head now. Why even bother of nothing serves a real purpose, we are born, exist and die but alot of suffering is being gone trough along the way to make it serve no purpose in the end. I commend people that see life as a test for something after, actually om am very jealous, i wish i could believe on such a thing as well. Even if its not true you at least feel like it's true and ot gives you a purpose to live.

 

For me the only reasonable thing to do would be to not have kids in the first place, but thats to late already.

I hate the fact thwt the only way for my kids to not suffer would be for me to take their lives. The idea of such a thing brings shivers down my spine. 

I am trying to convince me of some other idea but none are as effective as the one of not living and therefore not suffering.

How do i know for sure this is just plain ocd and not some true insight i might have been giving trough ocd?

[snowbear]

3 minutes ago, Ironborn said:

How do i know for sure this is just plain ocd and not some true insight i might have been giving trough ocd?

Because the idea of hurting your kids to prevent them suffering is crazy. Borders on psychotic thinking. If you are taking such thoughts seriously then you need to speak to someone and get help.

Thankfully, it is just typical OCD nonsense - sounds convincing at the time maybe, but falls apart as soon as you apply real logic to it, using healthy thinking rather than using screwed up OCD thinking.

OCD doesn't give people insights to 'truths'. It can't. It's illogical, abnormal thinking. It convinces people they are thinking rationally when the opposite is true.

At least you're aware you have OCD and are applying it's screwed up thinking to this nihilism idea. So, like all OCD thoughts, the aim is to dismiss them immediately as untrue nonsense, and not to waste time ruminating on it as if it made sense.

 

[Ironborn]

56 minutes ago, snowbear said:

Because the idea of hurting your kids to prevent them suffering is crazy. Borders on psychotic thinking. If you are taking such thoughts seriously then you need to speak to someone and get help.

Thankfully, it is just typical OCD nonsense - sounds convincing at the time maybe, but falls apart as soon as you apply real logic to it, using healthy thinking rather than using screwed up OCD thinking.

OCD doesn't give people insights to 'truths'. It can't. It's illogical, abnormal thinking. It convinces people they are thinking rationally when the opposite is true.

At least you're aware you have OCD and are applying it's screwed up thinking to this nihilism idea. So, like all OCD thoughts, the aim is to dismiss them immediately as untrue nonsense, and not to waste time ruminating on it as if it made sense.

 

My therapist thinks I also have some kind of affect phobia. Because whenever i feel something whenever i think a certain thing especially anxiety, or sadness kind of emotions i try to eliminate them asap or i dive way to deep into those emotions and why i feel them instead of just letting them come in or go trough them.

Is this good advice, or is this also just ocd and should the focus stay on ocd?

[snowbear]

Learning to allow emotions to come and go is key to a healthy mental life. It seems likely the two things are intertwined - your fear of emotion means you obsess about controling it - compelled to eliminate them or analyse them too deeply.

Work with your therapist to gain control over your OCD and this will include allowing emotions to come and go without the need to monitor them.

 

[ocdjonesy]

3 hours ago, snowbear said:

Learning to allow emotions to come and go is key to a healthy mental life. It seems likely the two things are intertwined - your fear of emotion means you obsess about controling it - compelled to eliminate them or analyse them too deeply.

Work with your therapist to gain control over your OCD and this will include allowing emotions to come and go without the need to monitor them.

 

Pretty much this.  You need to learn to actually feel your emotions instead of obsessing over them.

Also, the stuff about your kids not suffering if you kill them is some pure strain b***s***.  Death is suffering.  Your last act as their father would be to make them suffer out of a selfish desire for *you to not experience their suffering*.  So not only would you be defeating your purpose and being an extremely s**** dad - you'd also be removing their own choice as regards how they want to live.  For all you know your sons will be quite happy to accept suffering as the price of life and you acting to remove this choice from them in some act of selfish martyrdom would be nothing more than sophistry born of a desire to avoid how your children make you feel.

Which feeds back into your fear of feeling anything at all.  

Take these concerns to your therapist ***immediately***.  You need to get this line of thinking dealt with and dealt with fast.

Edited December 15, 2023 by ocdjonesy

[Ironborn]

6 hours ago, ocdjonesy said:

Pretty much this.  You need to learn to actually feel your emotions instead of obsessing over them.

Also, the stuff about your kids not suffering if you kill them is some pure strain b***s***.  Death is suffering.  Your last act as their father would be to make them suffer out of a selfish desire for *you to not experience their suffering*.  So not only would you be defeating your purpose and being an extremely s**** dad - you'd also be removing their own choice as regards how they want to live.  For all you know your sons will be quite happy to accept suffering as the price of life and you acting to remove this choice from them in some act of selfish martyrdom would be nothing more than sophistry born of a desire to avoid how your children make you feel.

Which feeds back into your fear of feeling anything at all.  

Take these concerns to your therapist ***immediately***.  You need to get this line of thinking dealt with and dealt with fast.

Your reply gives me alot of anxiety. As is would i really do such a thing?

Of course I do not want to do these things, its just that my mind is going a 100 mph.

Its my all or nothing thinking that is applied here again and i know that without ocd I would not have had these thoughts.

Its not to attack you or anything but these reactions qre exactly the reason om scared to share some of my thoughts, obsessions etc.

Because people probably will dismiss them as ocd and my thoughts and obaessions actually are true instead of just ocd which in itself feeds the ocd cycle i guess?

[Ironborn]

Im in a lot for anxiety and panic right now.

Ive always been convinced i could not do such a thing, but people thinking i might be a danger really makes me question it.

Trust me i dont see want to do those things, its just that my thoughts are constantly saying: that is the only way towards no suffering, and then im fighting it with thoughts like: but every person should be in own control if they want to live or not, or i try and convince myself that a certain religion must exist even though I am not religious just to be able to say that we are here for a greater purpose then just existing and therefore it's worthy to go through all these kinds of suffering.

Or

II try and check how I'm feeling when engaging in such ideas and thoughts and I specially searching for feelings of anxiety so that I can reassure myself that it is just plain OCD

Also I am going back to the ID and feeling of not existing to see if it still feels like the writing to do so I am constantly checking how I feel about that

[Ironborn]

Just wondering that maybe im in a sort of psychotic episode?

 

Because i find it really really hard to dismiss the idea that not living prevents suffering. I mean no one can deny such a statement right?

I'm throwing everything at it in my head, i try to find a single reason that convinces me that the thought is actually not true. And suffering in some way actually is a good thing, i just have not found the answer yet.

Ive also been testing how i would feel i I were to commit auch actions to lived ones and it makes me feel really sad and anxious.

 

[Ironborn]

Does any of this relates to my previous posts about a year ago?

 

and

 

 

I just feel like this time it will not pass by me because other information and possible evidence why it is the right choice has reached me

 

I honestly feel like with a lot of My OCD themes I get so caught up into obsessing and believing them that every Time that happens I might be Slipping into a mild to average psychotic episode.

But whenever I have tried to explain to several therapist that I feel I might be slipping into a psychotic episode they say it is just OCD

 

 

 

[ocdjonesy]

I’m not engaging with your ocd about having psychosis.  

I said what I said because if it were me I would take a theme like ‘I should kill my kids to save them suffering’ as a red flag for depression and  a sign I needed to talk about it with a professional.

Just like with repeated suicidal ideation I would identify such an extreme form of escapist thinking - i.e the death of children to avoid how they make me feel - I would take the fact I was thinking that was seriously.  

I do not f*** around with themes like that - I get help and do the work to deal with what’s causing them - because for me focusing on a line of thinking that involved harming someone I love to make myself feel better would be a red line I refuse to live with.

Take that how you want but you have a therapist and if I were you I’d be perusing this line of thinking with them sooner rather than later.

[Ironborn]

18 minutes ago, ocdjonesy said:

I’m not engaging with your ocd about having psychosis.  

I said what I said because if it were me I would take a theme like ‘I should kill my kids to save them suffering’ as a red flag for depression and  a sign I needed to talk about it with a professional.

Just like with repeated suicidal ideation I would identify such an extreme form of escapist thinking - i.e the death of children to avoid how they make me feel - I would take the fact I was thinking that was seriously.  

I do not f*** around with themes like that - I get help and do the work to deal with what’s causing them - because for me focusing on a line of thinking that involved harming someone I love to make myself feel better would be a red line I refuse to live with.

Take that how you want but you have a therapist and if I were you I’d be perusing this line of thinking with them sooner rather than later.

Well actually i just send an email to my therapist since he is not available in te weekends but will read this on monday.

The email i send;

 

Dear Kees,

 

I hope this message finds you well. I need to discuss something important with you, something that has been on my mind for a while and now seems to be reaching a climax. It's about the difficulty I'm experiencing in distinguishing thoughts and obsessions from reality. In the past, and as I understand it with others who have obsessive-compulsive disorder, there was often a need to confirm that their obsessive subject was not a real danger, despite the anxiety they felt. However, I now find myself often confused by obsessive thoughts and, despite knowing better, try to rationalize them or view them from a different perspective.

 

I am currently struggling with an obsession or thought that I also had about a year ago. This is about the idea that my children, Niek and Ties, will inevitably experience suffering in their lives, such as sadness, anger, fear, or sometimes not feeling well. I struggle with the idea that suffering is unnecessary and can only be avoided by not living. This is a frightening thought for me, but it also seems to be the only way to avoid suffering. I feel a kind of responsibility as a parent to prevent this suffering for my children. When I challenge this thought, for example by thinking that people should be able to decide for themselves whether they allow suffering in their lives, or that life is valuable despite suffering, existential and nihilistic thoughts also arise. These thoughts make it even harder for me to challenge my concerns about suffering and avoiding it.

 

I have also considered that such thoughts and actions, such as preventing life, are morally unacceptable. But then the idea of moral nihilism comes up, suggesting that our norms and values are human constructions without a natural basis. I feel that I may be developing delusions, not hallucinations, but ideas that transition into obsessive thoughts. It is becoming increasingly difficult for me to challenge these thoughts, as I always find a reason to undermine every perspective and insight. The result is that I feel my obsessive ideas are the only right solution, forcing me to lie to myself and my loved ones.

 

I would like to hear your opinion on this and would like to explore this further. I notice a clear difference from a few years ago, when I could still think that my obsessions were incorrect. Now they seem to be correct, even though they are not understood or supported by most people.

 

Kind regards,

 

 

[ocdjonesy]

I mean a lot of that email is you doing ocd but let’s take it as a win you reached out to your therapist to begin talking about this issue.

Good for you.  Now what are you going to do with the rest if your day?

[Ironborn]

Just now, ocdjonesy said:

I mean a lot of that email is you doing ocd but let’s take it as a win you reached out to your therapist to begin talking about this issue.

Good for you.  Now what are you going to do with the rest if your day?

Well right now im at home with my 2 sons. My wife will be coming back home within a hour or so.

The rest of the day we will be preparing our okdest son's birthday for tomorrow i guess. Baking an apple pie, cleaning, and groceries 

[ocdjonesy]

That sounds really nice.  I hope you’re able to put your OCD down for a while so you can all enjoy your sons birthday together.

[Ironborn]

Its just so hard. With everything that i do especially things i do with my kids, like just now before we went out the door putting on the shoes of the little one, i just got this overhelming feeling of nihilistic and feeling of emptiness, with thoughts like: whats the use in this? 

Is it not that because this subject mainly but not only focused on my 2 sons a clear indicator it must be ocd, and that its a lie?

[howard]

It often sounds like you're trying to push yourself to some edge(psychologically) or tipping point. With life, you can look at it the way you are doing or the opposite way.

Life is short so try to enjoy it and experience as much as possible, that's what life is about. Don't overthink it, experience it, live.

And the one great thing we do is have children, who are our legacy in many ways, from genetically to what they learn from us.

It's also their lives to experience and enjoy. You can't imagine that you can control everything, that's what ocd tries to do.

[Ironborn]

24 minutes ago, howard said:

It often sounds like you're trying to push yourself to some edge(psychologically) or tipping point. With life, you can look at it the way you are doing or the opposite way.

Life is short so try to enjoy it and experience as much as possible, that's what life is about. Don't overthink it, experience it, live.

And the one great thing we do is have children, who are our legacy in many ways, from genetically to what they learn from us.

It's also their lives to experience and enjoy. You can't imagine that you can control everything, that's what ocd tries to do.

Yes it does feel like that (pushing myself). even before i used to have ocd i was someone who would always analyse thoughts and stuff like that. it just now happens in a way which is really defeating its purpose but i dont know how to stop it, it is a automatic thing.

I want to enjoy life, and whenever i tell myself: from now on just try and enjoy the things, i immediatly get the thought: but what does joy mean? what is its purpose? and i can feel the hope i just gave myself that little bit of hope evaporate, and then i start to go with the nihilistic thinking again.

 

[howard]

I think most people at some time in their lives question what it's all about and most people reach an answer that suits them.

I'm not religious and don't believe in this preparing for a  fake afterlife idea and I also question and analyse most things. With some of us it's part of our mindset and personality.

Overthinking whether part of our personality, or because of ocd and a need for control take us away from experiencing life.

You do have to find your own meaning.

Just like enjoying every moment; the taste of a cup of coffee, sunshine on our faces, watching our children marvel and laugh, it's about experiencing all these small wonderful moments and not over analysing everything. Over analysing negates the joy of life itself.

 

[Ironborn]

Its just that i cannot seem to understand what this instant feeling of nihilism, emptiness, meaningless is whenever i engage in stuff that normally makes me joyfull. Even if it is just sitting next to my son's on the couch or as today putting them on their shoes before going out. Every moment being together with them is contaminated with this sensation of nothingness.

 

All of this happened within 2 days.

 

Ive had it before also, but this time it seems unable to come back for as if I've stepped through a door wich will be barricaded for ever and i can never return.

I do have history of depression, could depression come up so fast?

 

[ocdjonesy]

Can I ask - what were christmases and birthdays like for you as a kid?

[howard]

Why do you feel like you've 'stepped through a door'.

I think a person can have a history of depression, or just feel down and depressed fo a short time.

It happens to me sometimes for a day or two, I just feel down, bored, don't want to make any effort, but I just tell myself it will pass and carry on as normal> go out,  socialise, go shopping, normal things other than allowing my temporary funk to stop me and make me ruminate, ie: don't get dragged down by it. Just doing those normal things lifts my mood.

Maybe you should find a life system, have another look at Buddhism> it sees life as 'suffering', but offers a way forward through meditation and a spirtual belief system that focuses on humans as proactive in their futures and future acceptance and peace.

Edited December 16, 2023 by howard

[taurean]

9 minutes ago, Ironborn said:

but this time it seems unable to come back for as if I've stepped through a door wich will be barricaded for ever and i can never return.

I do have history of depression, could depression come up so fast?

This is catastrophising. Why should it be barricaded forever, and you can never return. 

Let's do a little cognitive reprocessing on this, the cognitive part of cognitive behavioural therapy. 

You have sunk into some really negative obsessive thoughts. There is no point in life, there's only ever bad news etc etc......

Let's look at this sensibly, practically.

If you went back any time in, say, the last 120 years,  there would probably only be some fairly minimal periods when we weren't ostensibly facing significant external, sometimes internal, threats ( e.g. cold war terrorism, high interest rates, unemployment risk, foot snd mouth, msd cow disease, covid).

So let's view threat levels as something of a constant thing.

Now let's say everyone has had to face many of those same things. 

But it's not the fear, or the threat, that determines our mental approach, but rather our response.

And when we get depressed, the threats will seem thst much more real, more likely.

We can choose to change our response. We can remember there are always threats, always risks. We can choose to be overwhelmed and see no way forward.

Or we can take a more rational approach. Accept what we cannot change, change the things we can, and have the wisdom to know the difference.

The news this morning reports that shops are having to make significant price reductions to try and shift unsold Christmss stock. That's bad news for their profitability, but good news for shoppers who can now have a better Christmas than they were expecting.

So maybe make a list of some of the things thst are causing you upset, and your automatic thinking response to them.

Now have another think, and write against each one a more rational response based on the kind of perception you would expect others to be making, and not skewed by your own/OCD thinking.

Then start to move towards thst more rational, practical, tske on things.

Thinking back on the past,  when I was a child my parents had to face up to the fact that if the Russians   launched a nuclear missile attack, we would not survive.

They knew the west had its own nuclear arsenal, and that defence gave some security.

They accepted that, and they kept calm and carried on.

For years, when I was working in the City of London, I was at risk of a terrorism attack.

I accepted that possibility. My affairs were in order, my wife snd I knew the risks, the odds were fairly high, and got much higher in the era of latter-day terrorism organisations.

But we kept calm and carried on.

It's all about rational interpretation and acceptance,spotting the skewed thinking of OCD, and redefining to not  give belief to it.

 

[Ironborn]

9 minutes ago, ocdjonesy said:

Can I ask - what were christmases and birthdays like for you as a kid?

Somewhat difficult i guess. My birthday is on the 2nd day of Christmas. Alot of the time people would not come because they had their own holliday to celebrate.

Up until i was 8 i have no memories of these holidays because i lived with an severely alcoholic mother who mentally screwed me up big time (ar the time it seemed normal).

After that when child protection services took me away and housed me with my father i do have some recollections of Christmas but not many of them were joyfull thanks to a mentally abusive girlfriend of my father.

The better holidays were in my adult years with my wife, but since ocd and mental illness came into my life it has always been a period of stress and anxiety. I dont even know why they just make me feel like i want to enjoy them so bad and therefore the opposite happens.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Ironborn