Worry Time

[Robin43]

Thank you @snowbear. I have taken a while to reflect on what you have said as it is very valuable information. I have been worried about using Worry Time. I had 35 sessions of therapy before and my previous therapists always told me not to get into the content, not to engage with the thoughts etc whereas this new therapist who I have started with suggested Worry Time which I am worried about as it is the complete opposite of what I was previously told. This therapist now says I can spend my worry time worrying and using compulsions as much as I want in the worry time. I really want to know if Worry Time is a proper CBT for OCD technique rather than just a general CBT technique to know whether to continue with this therapist or not.

This new therapist also says in addition to changing our behaviours, there is lots of different things we can do to manage outlr thoughts and our minds yet my previous therapists always said to leave the thoughts in your head unattended and do nothing with them. I am confused...should I be managing the stuff in my head or leaving it be?

Edited March 13 by Robin43
Omission

[snowbear]

Setting aside time to indulge compulsions is something suggested by a number of therapists, and it can help a beginner who really can't get their head around the idea of just not engaging with the thoughts at all, but it's not a 'recognised technique' in that it's not proven to help.

 

7 minutes ago, Robin43 said:

my previous therapists always said to leave the thoughts in your head unattended and do nothing with them.

Yup. That's the best thing to do because that's exactly what people without OCD do.

7 minutes ago, Robin43 said:

This new therapist also says in addition to changing our behaviours, there is lots of different things we can do to manage outlr thoughts and our minds

I don't think by 'managing the thoughts' she means engage with them. Perhaps she's referring to how we can assess our thinking patterns, watch out for habitual thinking and default thinking, and then intervene to change those patterns to more healthy responses.

'Managing your mind' might mean something like mindfulness, or distraction, or changing your internal dialogue so that you don't engage with the thoughts.

I wouldn't give up on her just yet. Next meeting you can say you've moved beyiond the beginner stage of using 'worry time' and want to get more help with non-engagement. Take it from there.

 

[Robin43]

Thanks @snowbear i really appreciate you getting back. My therapist knows I have already had 35 sessions from one of the UK specialist OCD clinics so to start me off with beginners Worry Time is a big red flag for me which goes against everything I have previously been taught.

Also, I have self identified today that I think "non existence" if I were to find out from a Neurologist that I was at increased risk of Dementia is probably a type of compulsion but I need to get it straight in my head how I wouldn't do non existence if I were to go to a Neurologist and they were to tell me I was at increased risk of Dementia due to the repeated head impacts. This is something I had been trying to find a solution to but it is proving impossible.

[PolarBear]

10 minutes ago, Robin43 said:

Thanks @snowbear i really appreciate you getting back. My therapist knows I have already had 35 sessions from one of the UK specialist OCD clinics so to start me off with beginners Worry Time is a big red flag for me which goes against everything I have previously been taught.

Also, I have self identified today that I think "non existence" if I were to find out from a Neurologist that I was at increased risk of Dementia is probably a type of compulsion but I need to get it straight in my head how I wouldn't do non existence if I were to go to a Neurologist and they were to tell me I was at increased risk of Dementia due to the repeated head impacts. This is something I had been trying to find a solution to but it is proving impossible.

No,you don't need to get it straight in your head. The idea of that likely came from you doing compulsions and in order for you to try and get it straight, you'll have to do even more compulsions, which won't work. You'll just go round and round in your head, which is exactly what OCD wants.

[Robin43]

22 minutes ago, PolarBear said:

No,you don't need to get it straight in your head. The idea of that likely came from you doing compulsions and in order for you to try and get it straight, you'll have to do even more compulsions, which won't work. You'll just go round and round in your head, which is exactly what OCD wants.

@PolarBearPolarBearbut then how else do I get round this:-

 

35 minutes ago, Robin43 said:

Also, I have self identified today that I think "non existence" if I were to find out from a Neurologist that I was at increased risk of Dementia is probably a type of compulsion but I need to get it straight in my head how I wouldn't do non existence if I were to go to a Neurologist and they were to tell me I was at increased risk of Dementia due to the repeated head impacts. This is something I had been trying to find a solution to but it is proving impossible.

 

[snowbear]

29 minutes ago, Robin43 said:

I have self identified today that I think "non existence" if I were to find out from a Neurologist that I was at increased risk of Dementia is probably a type of compulsion but I need to get it straight in my head how I wouldn't do non existence if I were to go to a Neurologist and they were to tell me I was at increased risk of Dementia due to the repeated head impacts. This is something I had been trying to find a solution to but it is proving impossible.

Yes, I agree - it's a self-protective thinking compulsion.

I used to tell myself that if I was contaminated by human touch ever again that I would (have to) kill myself. I think deep down I always knew that was just me expressing how VERY VERY VERY distressing the idea of being touched by another human was. I think deep down I always knew that I'd find a way to 'get clean', to survive, to work around it.

I think your 'non-existence' is the same sort of self-expression. A way of voicing (even if only to yourself) how totally abhorent and awful the dementia outcome feels to you, how much it terrifies you even to think it could happen, let alone how you'd deal with the reality.

But when you label 'going into non-existence' as just a thought, not an actual destiny you would be compelled to inflict on yourself, then dealing with reality becomes a lot simpler and a lot less scary.

So you get around it by accepting that totally terrifying as the thought might be, it is just a thought, a feeling, a fear - not an inevitability. Then you try to get some proportion back on your excessively strong emotional over-reaction. My over-reaction was anger and self-destruction, yours seems to be despair and giving up. Same difference, it's an emotional over-reaction way out of proportion to what reality requires.

It's very hard having to admit to yourself that you've gone a bit overboard in your thinking and that what you genuinely feel is an over reaction. This is where we put our Big Girl Pants on, swallow our pride, and start trying to look at the unknown future in a calmer, less emotionally-driven way.

Talking it through with your therapist should help. However excessive, off-the-scale and unnecessary your reaction has been, you need someone to validate the feelings you have experienced.  Sometimes just getting a (metaphorical) hug of empathy and an 'OMG, that's so awful' validation is enough to help you regain perspective.

You can of course be the one to give yourself that hug and verbal validation! Though it is nice to get it from another person.

But once they've expressed empathy, and agreed with you that you've been put through hell and any sane person would naturally (over-)react as you did, then it's Big Girl Pants time again - working through those extreme feelings until you are more in control, thinking more rationally, and have regained perspective.

Working through your feelings can again be as simple as talking about them, opening up. I mean really opening up - laying your feelings bare for the therapist to see, admitting to the therapist that yes, ok maybe you have been just a wee bit overly dramatic in your thinking etc   Talking openly, and completely honestly, like this helps you to come to terms with the trauma you've endured and the emotions you've experienced.

Recognising /admitting/ accepting that your thinking around this has been out of touch with reality helps to get your thinking back on track.   At first you'll probably have to 'fake it til you make it'   and keep telling yourself you'll be fine even though you sort of still believe it would be the disaster you have been imagining. But over time the more rational, more normal way of thinking about it sort of sinks in, becomes what you genuinely think and things get back into perspective.

I think you've had a major breakthrough today in realising your 'non-existance' idea is a sort of compulsion. Good for you.

[PolarBear]

58 minutes ago, Robin43 said:

@PolarBearPolarBearbut then how else do I get round this:-

 

 

You leave it alone. Stop looking for an answer. Stop trying to find a solution. In short, that means stopping your compulsions, like never research anything to do with dementia. 

[Robin43]

Thanks @snowbearyou have made some really valid points. I made the decision not to stay on with my current therapist. I do not feel that Worry Time aligns with the previous therapy which I had and it has made me feel uneasy. I need a therapist who can be firm and tough with me and Worry Time just felt like it was giving in to my compulsions because I specifically asked the therapist if I could do compulsions in Worry Time and she said yes, it was my 10-15 minutes to do anything I felt like doing. I can see this as a sort of compulsion but I can't get my head round how to deal with it that is the issue. I have decided from a clinical relevance that I am going to see a Neurologist as my GP didnt think it would be a bad idea after I explained everything about my head to her...so why have I not went yet?

The reason is because if the Neurologist says to me, yes you have an increased risk of Dementia, then I won't be able to deal with that any other way than to go into non existence-ie sit on the sofa everyday for the rest of my life and that is what I so badly need someone to help me with-how could I possibly cope with that inside my mind and the answer is I couldn't-I would fall apart. I already spent 2 full years in non existence after the smoke detector incident so I have proof that is what happens me.

[Robin43]

Thanks @PolarBearso you say I shouldn't do compulsions but I can't understand how to apply this to my current difficulty.

I have decided from a clinical relevance that I am going to see a Neurologist as my GP didnt think it would be a bad idea after I explained everything about my head to her...so why have I not went yet?

The reason is because if the Neurologist says to me, yes you have an increased risk of Dementia, then I won't be able to deal with that any other way than to go into non existence-ie sit on the sofa everyday for the rest of my life and that is what I so badly need someone to help me with-how could I possibly cope with that inside my mind and the answer is I couldn't-I would fall apart. I already spent 2 full years in non existence after the smoke detector incident so I have proof that is what happens me. 

[PolarBear]

1 hour ago, Robin43 said:

Thanks @PolarBearso you say I shouldn't do compulsions but I can't understand how to apply this to my current difficulty.

I have decided from a clinical relevance that I am going to see a Neurologist as my GP didnt think it would be a bad idea after I explained everything about my head to her...so why have I not went yet?

The reason is because if the Neurologist says to me, yes you have an increased risk of Dementia, then I won't be able to deal with that any other way than to go into non existence-ie sit on the sofa everyday for the rest of my life and that is what I so badly need someone to help me with-how could I possibly cope with that inside my mind and the answer is I couldn't-I would fall apart. I already spent 2 full years in non existence after the smoke detector incident so I have proof that is what happens me. 

So maybe you need a therapist to help you stay away from the couch, regardless the outcome. 

[Robin43]

@PolarBearbut how can a therapist help me do that? This is frightening me that I wont be able to get round this.

Edited March 15 by Robin43

[PolarBear]

Robin, I'm not a therapist and therefore don't know how they do everything. You are absolutely fixated on dementia, just as you were absolutely fixated on radiation. That's an OCD thing, but there is a common thread involving you dying and your life being over long before it really is.

[snowbear]

On 15/03/2024 at 20:27, Robin43 said:

The reason is because if the Neurologist says to me, yes you have an increased risk of Dementia, then I won't be able to deal with that any other way than to go into non existence-ie sit on the sofa everyday for the rest of my life and that is what I so badly need someone to help me with-how could I possibly cope with that inside my mind and the answer is I couldn't-I would fall apart. I already spent 2 full years in non existence after the smoke detector incident so I have proof that is what happens me.

The point I was making in my last post is you think you would fall apart, go into non-existence on the sofa etc.

Just as I was 100% convinced that if my worst fear happened that I would kill myself. I told myself so every day. Reinforced the idea that I'd have to die every time the possibility came up. Because I 'died' the first time around. Went into a fugue state for 3 years, floating behind my left shoulder watching 'her' going through the motions of living.

But it was just a compulsive thought.

Same as for you the idea that you would automatically go into non-existence because that's how you coped before is just a compulsive thought.

Every time you think about how you'd cope and conclude yet again that you'd end up back on the sofa - that's performing a compulsion. A compulsion that feeds the OCD and reinforces the belief that the only possible solution is non-existence.

So that's the bit of thinking you need to change. Start telling yourself, 'Even if the unimaginable worst happens, I'll cope. '

For now, don't even try working out how you'd cope, or think about how you'd be feeling - those are compulsions too. They're compulsively trying to find answers and certainty to something that hasn't actually happened (and might never happen.) You can't have certainty about your future no matter how much you want it. Like it or not, we all have to accept that.

Any 'certainty' about what the future will be like and how you'll feel is an illusion. A figment of your imagination. A projected hypothesis with no more validity than hypothesising you're going to be the first person to live to 1000 years old.

So start telling yourself, 'Whatever happens, I'll cope!'   You don't even have to believe it at first, just as long as you stop telling yourself 'I'll go into non-existence'

Stop trying to predict your future feelings.

When you feel you're starting to get a handle on the idea that nobody can predict their future and we absolutely certainly can't predict our feelings and responses to that unknowable future  - then book the appointment with the neurologist.

At that point you'll be able to go to the appointment thinking 'Whatever happens    I'll cope!  

Which is a huge step forward from where you're at now - just as afraid, telling yourself your life would be over, and stuck in limbo as a result.

Developing the resilience you need starts by changing what you tell yourself.

Simple as that. Quit the compulsive negative self-talk, and replace it with a 'Don't know, will find out when I get there, time will tell, I'll cope whatever' philosophy.

[Garfield]

14 hours ago, snowbear said:

Start telling yourself, 'Even if the unimaginable worst happens, I'll cope. '

For now, don't even try working out how you'd cope, or think about how you'd be feeling - those are compulsions too. They're compulsively trying to find answers and certainty to something that hasn't actually happened (and might never happen.) You can't have certainty about your future no matter how much you want it. Like it or not, we all have to accept that.

Any 'certainty' about what the future will be like and how you'll feel is an illusion. A figment of your imagination. A projected hypothesis with no more validity than hypothesising you're going to be the first person to live to 1000 years old.

Love the last Post by Snowbear, so useful / helpful.  I keep reading it, especially, bit above.

[howard]

@Robin43 it does sound like you go for this typical ocd trait of all or nothing; I'm either going to be demented or completely well. I suppose it's anxiety and fear that lead to that extreme thinking.

But there is much nuance between the two. I have been looking into head impacts and the impacts do need to be severe enough to bounce our brains off the inside of our skulls. It seems that some can take many impacts and it doesn't affect them. It may be down to individual physiology or other factors. It's also good to see that in sports young players are being taught to tackle without head contact.(I was looking at Australian football). .

So if you haven't got any of those early symptoms of cognitive decline(as stated on the NHS webpage) I wouldn't worry and just wait for the screening to be offered.

I had a sort of glimpse last week. I'd been offered screening for a lung check. I then had a lung infection and couldn't breathe and started to fear the worst, but I didn't want to go for the test and have the worst confirmed.

Actually even if you don't get checked it's worth adopting a lifestyle that mitigates against any decline; healthy eating, exercise, lower stress and in the case of dementia keeping learning and creating new neural pathways and structures.