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Are you always aware of your checking compulsions?


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Why can't you talk to your therapist?  That's the whole point of seeing her, to get help & advice.

I'm sorry you're struggling but despite that, we can't help by reassuring you on this.  You have to think about all that's been said and do your best to try and change your reaction to this. 

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@Caramoole, do you really think, that no matter how real an urge combined with an act for someone felt, that it simply isn't real? I personally believe, that there are not only “intrusive urges”, but also “intrusive acts”. For me personally, this even sounds, as if it's just another compulsion to say, that everything is just an intrusive urge and that it's just imagined. As if we are told to lie to ourselves, haha.

Can we not simply accept the reality, that human being sometimes do stupid acts out of a moment, because of some random thought or urge, but that these moments don't define us at all, in the end, because everybody has them? I think most people just aren't really aware and that Cora for example just has a hyper awareness. I hope nobody feels triggered by this, but for me this explanation, that these are imagined and so on, also seems to be like reassurance giving.

I don't know. But in the heat of a moment, everything can happen for a split second. I'm not saying that Coras reaction to these moments are somehow justified. No, not at all. I'm just saying moments like that are real.

People like Cora simply choose to analyze moments like these, while other's don't. So they move on, while Cora is stuck. That's the real difference.

Edited by discuccsant
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34 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

Can we not simply accept the reality, that human being sometimes do stupid acts out of a moment

I hink you're probably misunderstanding.  Cora hasn't done anything stupid....she's done something "normal" that she/her OCD misinterpret as deviant behaviour.  Normal things like stroking or hugging a dog or kissing and hugging a sibling.  I don't believe there are intrusive "acts" as you call them.  I think there are what seem like involuntary movements where we feel we're moving our hand towards something.  I think there are also many instances of testing.  People might check out certain types of porography that they later regret, this is more often than not testing.  Yes, sure in life people do things they later regret in general.

 

53 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

People like Cora simply choose to analyze moments like these, while other's don't.

Yes, because she has OCD but her analysis is wrong, she is reacting to a distorted analysis.  Big difference to what you're suggesting....if I've understood you properly

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Cora clearly said, though, that it felt for her, as if she did in fact act on the urge at this moment. And reading other posts of hers, it's very often like, as if she liked it for the very moment she acted on it. Yes, watching it outwardly, it's super normal to stroke your pets or to kiss them. But what Cora is concerned about, are what her inward intentions in the very moment always were: That's why she has problems accepting it. That's why she can't understand how she should dismiss it as a “misinterpretation”, even though she “knows” that it was very real at the moment it happened and that she acted on some evil intention here — I'm not saying the act itself is evil, I'm just saying her intention were.

It seems, to me at least, as if she acts on these intrusive urges' impulses at these very moments, just to be instantly shocked about them the very second later. So yeah, that's why I call it not only “intrusive thoughts”, but also “intrusive actions”. I've seen several people like her across many forums, and mostly people like these can't move on, as the explanation they get are somehow off, in my opinion.

And no. I'm not talking about the porn stuff, as I think this has nothing to do with intrusiveness. Agreed, I also think, that this is just some type of testing or some kind of teenage curiosity. But that's not what I mean at all.

What I'm talking about are these very tiny moments, where you in FACT act out of some “evil” — and this is also subjective — intention. There are a lot of people like Cora. And for me, it's as if this is some kind of taboo to talk about, even though I think it's also part of OCD and nothing, a sufferer should feel bad about. I think it's pretty human to have moments like that.

Imagine you take a very small pebble. Imagine you get a sudden impulse to throw this pebble at your child. And now imagine you also do that out of this stupid urge in this very moment. This is what I'm talking about. On the opposite, I think that you believe, that the sufferer should accept, they never threw the pebble at all, but that they just imagined it. Or that the sufferer should accept, that he didn't throw the pebble out of an evil intention at his child, but out of fun or out of testing. Of course there are incidents, where this is the case, but I think there are also incidents, where it really happened. So for the person who threw the pebble, it was very obvious they did so out of an evil intention/urge when it happened and that it happened. That's what I mean by random, intrusive actions or moments.

Let's take this example again: If this had happened to a guy with harm themed OCD, the guy would obviously freak out. At the same moment, though, people without OCD wouldn't even give it a second thought. For me personally, not the “what if”'s are the problem, but for me it's the exaggerated reaction to them. Who cares if you stroked that pet out of a weird impulse, you normally never have?

In my opinion, Cora shouldn't try to “dismiss” them as something, she interpreted falsely, but as something, she just happens to exaggerate.

That's why I'm also always saying, that people without OCD do have moments like that as well. They are just so tiny and non-relevant, without any kind of bad outcomes at all, that it simply doesn't matter for them to analyze these moments. No. They don't give it any second thought. Likewise, they me look weird for a second or be like “What the hell was that?”, but then don't care about it the next second.

Cora's biggest problem is the REACTION to these moments, not the moments themselves. And you very correctly asked her:

Quote

How many pet owners have raised concerns or complained about your actions?

This summarizes everything to move on, in my opinion: No harm was done, forget about it. Cora, though, is suffering from a very rigid black and white thinking, which makes her believe, that even tiny, random and intrusive moments like that, are to be classified as sexual assault. Cora is basically dramatizing everything to a very unhealthy extent.

Edited by discuccsant
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3 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

What I'm talking about are these very tiny moments, where you in FACT act out of some “evil”

I really don't agree with you at all and fear you are completely misunderstanding.  There's no weirdness about it, only her fear that it's weird.  This is all very common OCD stuff and whilst I accept that you have every right to an opinion, I hope others realise that it's just a personal opinion

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1 minute ago, Saffron37 said:

I agree with Caramoole on this one. I don't think the content of compulsions represent anything meaningful about the person. It's all about distortions of perception.

I was just about to type those very words when this post appeared!

I second/ third what Caramoole said. It's all about the meaning someone gives to their thoughts/ feelings/ actions. Whether the thoughts, urges and actions were intentional or not is completely irrelevant. It's the meaning/ interpretation a person gives it which makes it OCD, not the unwanted or 'intrusive' nature of things.

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I'm not saying moments like these define a person. That's something I never said or would want to imply. Absolutely not! Moments like that are just so tiny and non-relevant, that they don't matter, yet they are evil in the sense, that they were done out of a bad intention — and “bad” is subjectively here.

I'm just saying, that moments like that CAN and WILL happen, but that most people don't give a second thought about them, because they are so tiny and simply non-issues, that they don't reflect upon the actual character of the person. That's what I'm saying. Maybe we mean the same here, I don't know. I just think it's unhealthy to pretend, as if humans never do act out of character for a friction of a second. There is simply no evidence to pretend something like that. Do people with OCD make up scenarios? Yes. Does this mean that everything is made up? No. Correlation does not imply causation. That's a very important saying in philosophy and logics.

I think we both want the best for Cora. While you say: No, you never did something bad at all. I'm saying: Yeah, you might have done so, but these moments were so tiny and non-issues, that they don't reflect upon your actual character. In the end, it doesn't matter.

Edited by discuccsant
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Snowbear, I do agree with you to a certain extent. Of course, in the end, it's all about the meaning we give a thought, that triggered our action: Was it a bad thought? Was it a good intention? Did I do something evil? Normally, people simply don't question themselves, no matter what they felt in this very moment. This just implies, to me though, that the interpretation whether it was good or bad is the problem in itself and not the answer to this. So that's why I also think, that interpreting these events/thoughts in the first place is the main issue here. And as you said, giving them any meaning, does cause the suffering for people with OCD, while people without OCD wouldn't try to analyze them. The problem IS NOT, as Saffron said, the content itself of the thought/urge or whatever. The problem is the reaction to it.

But this doesn't change the fact, that IF they would analyze it, that they also might come to correct conclusion: Yeah, I acted out of a character here for a friction of a second. I don't want to start a discussion or cause some kind of trauma with saying that. I just say, that people with OCD should understand in the end, that it doesn't matter, because this happens to everyone and that they just made the mistake of overanalyzing it.

Edited by discuccsant
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23 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

I think we both want the best for Cora. While you say: No, you never did something at all. I'm saying: Yeah, you might have done so, but these moments were so tiny and non-issues, that they don't reflect upon your actual character. In the end, it doesn't matter.

Sure, I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with you. It seems like you're saying that OCD sufferers' compulsions might reflect some kind of subconscious desire, even a brief one, and from what I understand about OCD it's actually the opposite--that obsessions and compulsions come from what the sufferer hates and fears most. 

Of course, it's a totally normal part of human nature to have momentary thoughts that are unwholesome or "deviant," but I don't think that really is what drives OCD compulsions. 

That said, I do agree with you that acceptance of thoughts and feelings and the ability to let go of them is of paramount important in overcoming OCD, no matter where they come from or why. :)

Edited by Saffron37
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Just now, Saffron37 said:

I just don't agree with you

Me neither :(

30 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

yet they are evil in the sense, that they were done out of a bad intention

I think that this is nonsense.  They are neither evil nor is there bad intent.  Cora has an unwanted thought, a fear that she has sexual desires towards whatever and then continues with a normal behaviour such as stroking a dog.  She also had unwanted urges that she felt would progress to abuse....they didn't and don't.

I know your intent is to help but feel that this personal interpretation doesn't help at all and will confuse and distress anyone reading it

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1 hour ago, Saffron37 said:

Sure, I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with you. It seems like you're saying that OCD sufferers' compulsions might reflect some kind of subconscious desire, even a brief one, and from what I understand about OCD it's actually the opposite--that obsessions and compulsions come from what the sufferer hates and fears most. 

Of course, it's a totally normal part of human nature to have momentary thoughts that are unwholesome or "deviant," but I don't think that really is what drives OCD compulsions at all. 

I'm not seeing any relation between an OCD sufferers compulsion and some kind of hidden desire. I never implicated something like that. No. The term “intrusive thought” is just something made up. It's just a thought. Nothing else. “Intrusive urge” is also made up: In the end, it's just an urge. It doesn't matter whether we like them with our intellect or not. No. But we can't deny the fact, that they are there. Our brains do produce them. The term intrusive only means, that we don't like them. We interpret the thoughts. That's the problem.

It's simply a human thing. We do have thoughts and we do have urges. Do we like them, or do we identify with all of them? No. Does it automatically mean we are misinterpreting them falsely as thought or urges, and they're just something else? Nope.

The more a sufferer fears something, the more thoughts he will have of it, obviously. That's the problem with OCD in the beginning: It's a very mean cycle: To fear something (making an emotional connection to it), means also to produce thoughts about it. Humans basically have two methods of processing something: With our emotions and our intellect. Both are part of the human brain.

If I constantly fear topic A, because I hate it emotionally speaking, I will do produce obviously thoughts about it. Now people with OCD can't “accept”, that their brain can produce weird, egodystonic thoughts and urges. For our brains, it doesn't matter how and why we think about something. It just knows, that we think about something very often. We program our brain to be constantly aware of it. That's how OCD works. That's why there is absolutely no correlation between the frequency of a specific thought and our inner values. Making a stupid connection like that couldn't be further from the truth. That has nothing to do with any kind of hidden desire!

People with sexual intrusive thoughts fear this content the most. They despite and hate them. They don't want to associate with them, even the slightest bit! I think Cora might be someone in the complete world, who is among a group of persons, who happen to hate stuff like that the most. She's literally among the top 0,001% of all people, who happen to hate sexual assault the most. The problem is, that this extreme fear is simply not healthy and the reason for her fear.

That's why she is constantly fearing to do something that would count as sexual assault. Just the thought alone of it makes her feel completely uncomfortable. The problem is, though, that the more you fear it and the more you think about it, the more often you trigger thoughts about this. Which also means urges. And here we are: Cora stroking her pet. With her having this immense fear all the time and being constantly aware of it. With her brain viewing it as something sexual relevant, with it the very opposite of what she wants. And therefore constantly producing intrusive thoughts and urges and all of that, while she does something: stroking her pet. How is it not possible for you, that she might have “acted” on an intrusive urge for a split second, because she already was doing it, just to be shocked by it and feeling immense guilt the very moment after?

Cora's issue, though, is that she can't define what a moment like that means for her now. And now she comes to this forum, seeking for help, while everybody is telling her: Well, no. You are wrong. You didn't do anything weird at all. Of course, she can't accept that, as this isn't how it actually went. She isn't stupid.

What I would tell people like Cora: Put thoughts, urges AND moments like that on the very same level of OCD ********. They don't define you, and they are the manifestation of the very same issue: Your OCD. But telling her, that she just misinterpret the VERY actual moment? No. That's in my opinion not helping at all. And I think Cora's case might be very rare in terms of “acting” upon it. That's why she also CONSTANTLY doubts her OCD. And that's also the reason, in her mind, she doesn't seem to fit the definition of OCD at all.

Now: Is it still a hidden “desire” in terms of what she loves? Absolutely not. It's just the way, she unintentionally programmed her brain to react upon something. And she was unfortunate enough, to have intrusive thoughts about something, society is constantly doing: Touching people and touching pets. She isn't different to anyone else. She is your standard OCD sufferer. Her theme makes it just very easy to act upon an intrusive urge, because she is already doing something very similar to it: Touching. And therefore she acted for a friction of a second on this urge, which nevertheless doesn't say ANYTHING about her at all!

I don't see how you can't see this that way. And I also really don't want to trigger anyone, but we need to be open about this, because this makes people very often feel misunderstood. Not every sufferer is the same. Some are naive enough to believe it, that OCD just makes you misinterpret EVERYTHING. I can't accept that. Not everything is simply a misconception, whenever an OCD sufferer tells you about something he suffers from.

It nevertheless doesn't change the answer to the question, whether the absurd reaction of Cora is justified or not. It's not. Absolutely not. And everybody here knows that.

Edited by discuccsant
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Hi,

I have not had time to read the full ins & outs of what you have written @discuccsant, but I should imagine that the the only thing that comes close to acting on an intrusive urge would be like bipolar/manic depression type actions. And having OCD too.

I don't have bipolar, but have in the past been on a high, acted on urges, & then regretted after & hit a low, but I would never class this as OCD.

Edited by felix4
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6 minutes ago, felix4 said:

Hi,

I have not had time to read the full ins & outs of what you have written @discuccsant, but I should imagine that the the only thing that comes close to acting on an intrusive urge would be like bipolar/manic depression type actions. And having OCD too.

I don't have bipolar, but have in the past been on a high, acted on urges, & then regretted after & hit a low, but I would never class this as OCD.

You seem to misunderstand me. I'm not talking about “full action” acting, no. I'm talking about very small and irrelevant actions, nobody except you would even notice for a friction of a second.

Edited by discuccsant
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OCD is not the content. The thought. Or the urge. OCD is the reaction to it. The unreasonable, exaggerated reaction to something. Acting on an urge has essentially nothing to do with OCD itself. The reaction to it, has, though.

Yeah, you might have killed an annoying fly. But this doesn't mean, that your reaction to it by thinking “I'm a murderer” or “I killed someone I will burn in hell” is justified or reasonable. That's the biggest issue. The same goes with relationship OCD. Yeah, you think this girl is hot and you gazed at her. It doesn't mean you are cheater though. Do you get what I mean?

OCD is not your placeholder for everything that has to do with your thoughts. OCD is the obsessive thinking and rumination about it in the aftermath, which isn't justified at all and which causes the distress and sorrow. So yeah, I agree with you: It has nothing to do with OCD, but your reaction to it might have. ?

Edited by discuccsant
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Hello everyone, 

This is a very important subject for me so thank you everyone for your advice and input. But reading all of this, and I'm not saying it's anyone's fault, triggered me. Here it goes. 

13 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

I'm talking about very small and irrelevant actions, nobody except you would even notice for a friction of a second.

@discuccsant, what about incidents that are not friction of a second but 20, 30 seconds? This happened two years ago. I was playing with my cousin (he was about 7 months old) and while I was sitting on the floor in a crossed leg position holding him, his small feet were touching my pelvic area while jumping up and down, which immediately triggered a groinal movement. It felt like I enjoyed it in a sexual way and I decided, for some reason, to stand up, but I didn't move his feet away - I let his feet be there and I think I did it because I wanted the feeling in my groinal are to continue. So I stood up, let the baby's feet remain on my pelvic area on purpose, and all of this, obviously lasted more than one or two seconds. 

This incident is causing me the most pain ever. I can't let go of it. My therapist and I tried to work on it, and we still are, but I simply can't move on, and I'm convinced that's because I sexually abused my baby cousin. I obtained sexual gratification for my own sake from a child even though I didn't plan it. That summer was the beginning of my OCD and I was already struggling when that happened. In that moment it seemed like I had no control over what j was doing but that's not an excuse, is it? 

This specific incident wasn't a couple of seconds - it was 20, 30 or even 40 seconds, I can't remember exactly. So does it mean it was actual child abuse, and not just acting on an innocent urge? 

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Hi Cora,

I don't want to give you any reassurance, and my initial reaction to it was instantaneously, though: Move on. But obviously you can't do that. I'm not a therapist, to be honest, but I would like to know what she told you about this? Like, what was her opinion on that? What did she tell you?

 

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8 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

Hi Cora,

I don't want to give you any reassurance, and my initial reaction to it was instantaneously, though: Move on. But obviously you can't do that. I'm not a therapist, to be honest, but I would like to know what she told you about this? Like, what was her opinion on that? What did she tell you?

 

She said everyone makes mistakes and that incident doesn't have to define my whole life. But that hasn't helped me too much. I live with this incident at the back of my mind every single day. Some days, like today, I think of it quite a lot, and other days it doesn't bother me as much. But it's always there and I can't move on. 

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Does it mean, that she accepts it, as you just described it? Or does she say, that you are just misinterpreting the situation?

I'm not going to give you any reassurance or whatsoever, even though I would like to, haha. I'm just curious in what your therapist says regarding this and whether, I'm completely false with my posts before or not.

Edited by discuccsant
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Just now, discuccsant said:

Does it mean, that she accepts as you just described it? Or does she say, that you are just misinterpreting the situation?

She accepts it as I describe it but she also thinks my OCD makes me exaggerate my feelings toward the incident. 

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That's exactly how I see it. So, this personally shows to me, that humans do weird stuff here and then and not everything is OCD misinterpretation. And yes, your incident also counts as that. Humans are not some kind of algorithm, that always work the same. No. Human brains are super complex. Especially our consciousness.

Reading your incident makes me think, that this might have happened to others before, yet they would have easily moved on from it. I think the main difference might be, that people without OCD would be like, “Well. That was disgusting. But I know who I am, and I know, that this doesn't define me as a person. It was just a weird moment nevertheless”. They are self-confident enough, to not define themselves by that. And the topic itself is just so sensitive to everyone, that nobody would say something like that openly. So obviously you feel alone in this world. Most might even have forgotten moments like that in their life. So where are the limits of when to be concerned about incidents like that and when not?

Well, I personally think in the end, that it always depends on your reaction to what happened in the aftermath. You know what I mean? If someone is like “Yes, I really liked that, and I'm going to continue with stuff like and even worse”, then obviously put this piece of human into jail. But if someone like you, suffering from it immensely, and who clearly didn't like what happened: Let it go. We are humans. We do stupid stuff here and then. Not only that, but we just grow out of it. We become wiser and learn from stuff like that. And aren't you still very young? Happens. The second main point for me is, that you also didn't cause any damage or something like that. It always depends on the wider context, not the very situation itself.

I'm pretty sure the therapist told similar things to you, as I did, right?

It's also interesting to understand now, why you couldn't already move on from all of this: This incident is the main defining issue for you, that triggers your OCD. All the other incidents are just like the stars are to the moon, which in the end overshadows everything. So you could easily move on from each of these incidents, if this particular one wouldn't be there. The big fat one. You feel you can't.

But you can and should, Cora :)

Edited by discuccsant
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Once again, this thread is going seriously in a direction that isn't going to help at all.

Cora you were simply bouncing a young baby up and down as babies love to do, you started to ruminate, you assessed body sensations (of which OCD loves to make something of) and came up with a fearful, anxiety-making conclusion.  Normal, common OCD stuff

24 minutes ago, Cora said:

she also thinks my OCD makes me exaggerate my feelings toward the incident. 

Absolutely.

Please remember Cora that Discussants theories are his own opinion only and I think are pretty confusing & dare I say, potentially harmful

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I'm accepting that I might be wrong. I hold my own opinions on that. Maybe I'm in the complete wrong and everyone here is absolutely right, that you are just misinterpreting everything. And if I might cause any damage by being open about my opinion, I won't comment any further at this forum. I think I might trigger people with saying stuff like that. This is obviously not my intention. So I'm really sorry for all of that, but I feel as if it's for the better.

If you wish, you can also delete all my old posts, as they may contain other stuff like that.

I wish all of you the very best :)

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@Caramoole, I mean no disrespect at all, I promise, but I think it was more than just a conclusion based on my anxiety. I know what I did, even though in those seconds I simply didn't think straight (I sounds like a criminal...) and I'm completely sure I let his feet on my pelvic area on purpose. I did do that. And I'm sure it was because the feeling in my groinal area felt enjoyable. It makes me really mad because I know I'm not that kind of person but in that moment it's like I was mentally frozen and couldn't digest what was really going on.  

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