Uncertain about how to be uncertain & recovery is becoming confusing

[saddaniels]

Yes, that sounds like the right thing to do. I still don't understand exposures though. Like habituation to wrong settings. What's the point when you just go back to settings you like? If they still make me anxious, I obviously didn't habituate to them like I was supposed to. Maybe I'm not being clear with my confusion on here.

[Franklin12]

The point of exposures of any kind is to practice feeling uncomfortable. That discomfort won't harm you. That you can cope with negative emotions. So that you can go through life dealing with risk, uncertainty, and everyday ups and downs. 

[ohwhyhello]

33 minutes ago, saddaniels said:

I still don't understand exposures though.

So, stop trying to.

[PolarBear]

6 hours ago, saddaniels said:

 Get used to having settings wrong so that in the future, you will choose to have your settings wrong & not have a problem with it. 

This is the definition of exposure. 

And since now, currently, I'm anxious to put my settings off, I failed my exposure in the past. The exposure never worked. I did something wrong. If ERP is universal to all OCD themes, I've done something wrong according to the definition of exposure, which is to desensitize & habituate to whatever you are exposed to.

Until I understand what exposures are for, I'm afraid I won't be able to get out of this cycle of rumination.

Your definition of an exposure is wrong.

[PolarBear]

5 hours ago, saddaniels said:

Ok, all I want to do is keep my settings the way I like them & resist compulsions. I'm tired of thinking "would a zoom bother someone else?", "should I habituate to this setting?" "Would this make someone else as anxious as it would make me, etc."

 

what therapy style is just resisting compulsions without exposures? What behavior therapy is that?

You have a twisted view of what ERP is for, therefore all of your arguments don't make sense.

[taurean]

But let's argue the toss on that another time, when Daniels has chalked up some success. 

He is all ready to go all out to ruminate on anything to do with exposure, and needs to stop. 

[saddaniels]

1 hour ago, PolarBear said:

You have a twisted view of what ERP is for, therefore all of your arguments don't make sense.

I'd like to untwist these views & until I do, I'm afraid I'll just stay confused. 

[saddaniels]

No, right now I acknowledge my OCD isn't focused on TV settings. Right now, I am ruminating like crazy over ERP therapy.

Still, I feel like I need to have an understanding of what ERP is for so when other themes pop up or reoccur, I can deal with them.

One of the biggest problems I struggle with is the exposure part of ERP. Having to habituate to wrong settings on a TV if my OCD latches on to my TV again scares me.

For example, say my intrusive thought is "oh no, I'm afraid my TV is on the zoom in setting." My compulsion would be to check and make sure the TV wasn't on the zoom in setting, many times.

So for an exposure, it seems like I would be asked to put my TV on the zoom in setting & sit with the anxiety, right?

But I'm confused as to what the purpose is.

Is the purpose to become comfortable with the zoom in setting? Is the purpose to show me that my TV probably never was on the zoom in setting? Is the purpose to sit with that anxiety so I can ease off on my compulsions?

Surely, the goal isn't to become comfortable with the zoom in setting & to not care if it was on the zoom in setting.

I thought the goal of ERP was to become comfortable with uncertainty, which I guess would mean to stop checking my TV so much.

The exposure part confuses me though. It does. 

[PolarBear]

You fully admit that your OCD theme right now is not about TV settings but you keep going on and on and on about having to expose yourself to screwed up TV settings. It makes absolutely no sense. People with contamination OCD do not expose themselves to pedophile thoughts. People with false memory OCD do not expose themselves by eating gummy bears off toilet seats. People who have OCD about doing exposures should not be exposing themselves to wrong TV settings.

I just can't make it any simpler than that.

[saddaniels]

I completely hear you. No exposures need to be done right now. I agree.

The fear comes from what might happen in the future when intrusive thoughts about something other than OCD about exposures occur. If I ever do use exposures again, I'd like to know what the purpose of exposures are for. Exposures scare me due to my understanding that when you expose yourself to something, you are desensitizing yourself to it.

Again, hypothetically let's say a future intrusive thought was "oh no, my TV is zoomed in". And my compulsion would be to check over and over and over again to make sure my TV was not set on the zoomed in setting.

Well, for an exposure, wouldn't I be asked to zoom in on my TV and habituate to that??

My big problem, my biggest fear, is that I'm supposed to literally habituate to having my TV zoomed in & to not care.

I don't understand exposures but I'm trying to.

Also, I agree no exposures need to be done now, but I'm so confused because in the future if I do use them, I will need to know why I'm using them for the sake of my health.

[saddaniels]

Everyone else is entitled to their judgements/things they do & don't like. Also, they're allowed to have limits. 

I believe I'm allowed that too, even though I suffer from OCD.

The fear comes in with exposures to anything. Obviously normal people don't do exposures around TV settings because they set it and leave it be. They aren't required to become comfortable with settings being off from the way they don't like them.

So keeping in mind that I, myself & all other OCD sufferers are allowed the same luxury as normal people, what is the purpose of exposures? 

If my exposure was to sit with my settings being off from how I liked them (zoomed in, etc.), what is the purpose of that & when do I get to go back and have the luxury that normal people have?

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by saddaniels

[saddaniels]

Or to put it another way:

Normal person doesn't like his TV zoomed in, so he keeps it on the setting that he finds most suitable & fit to his preference.

No exposure required, obviously.

 

OCD person doesn't like his TV zoomed in, but constantly checks his settings day in and day out to make sure his settings are still suitable & fit to how he likes it.

His exposure: set the TV off/zoom it in. 

 

My question is, what is supposed to come of this exposure when applied to therapy?

I'm confused & trying to learn the purpose of exposures.

 

[saddaniels]

PolarBear, I'm not dismissing the fact that I dont need to be doing exposures right now. I agree with you & thank you for your guidance. My fear comes from not understanding ERP if I'm ever to use it again. I'm not the person who dismisses things completely. There is a point to ERP. There has to be. It saves lives. I'm trying to figure out it's point. That's all.

[saddaniels]

While being completely anxious & in distress, but still, trying to wrap my head around it.

The rumination is bad, yes. It hurts, yes. Am I tired all the time? Yes. Will I completely dismiss ERP? No. Because I want to beat OCD. 

[PolarBear]

1 hour ago, saddaniels said:

I completely hear you. No exposures need to be done right now. I agree.

The fear comes from what might happen in the future when intrusive thoughts about something other than OCD about exposures occur. If I ever do use exposures again, I'd like to know what the purpose of exposures are for. Exposures scare me due to my understanding that when you expose yourself to something, you are desensitizing yourself to it.

Again, hypothetically let's say a future intrusive thought was "oh no, my TV is zoomed in". And my compulsion would be to check over and over and over again to make sure my TV was not set on the zoomed in setting.

Well, for an exposure, wouldn't I be asked to zoom in on my TV and habituate to that??

My big problem, my biggest fear, is that I'm supposed to literally habituate to having my TV zoomed in & to not care.

I don't understand exposures but I'm trying to.

Also, I agree no exposures need to be done now, but I'm so confused because in the future if I do use them, I will need to know why I'm using them for the sake of my health.

There is no reason for you to see into the future and presuppose what intrusive thoughts you may have and try to figure out what exposures you would do. You deal with that at the time, not now. And the simple fact of the matter is, despite the fact that you fully admit your OCD is not about TV settings, you have been screwing around with TV settings of late, for absolutely no reason.

You also are absolutely fixated on exposures as the ONLY way to recover from OCD. That is far from the truth. There is the cognitive side of CBT that needs to be dealt with and there is the simple (but devilishly difficult) act of stopping compulsions. In fact, stopping compulsions that you are doing is, in my opinion, more important than ERP.

Right now you need to unfocus your attention from exposures and focus your attention on not doing compulsions, which you are doing to a considerable degree.

[PolarBear]

1 hour ago, saddaniels said:

Everyone else is entitled to their judgements/things they do & don't like. Also, they're allowed to have limits. 

I believe I'm allowed that too, even though I suffer from OCD.

The fear comes in with exposures to anything. Obviously normal people don't do exposures around TV settings because they set it and leave it be. They aren't required to become comfortable with settings being off from the way they don't like them.

So keeping in mind that I, myself & all other OCD sufferers are allowed the same luxury as normal people, what is the purpose of exposures? 

If my exposure was to sit with my settings being off from how I liked them (zoomed in, etc.), what is the purpose of that & when do I get to go back and have the luxury that normal people have?

 

Again, you are fixated on how you're supposed to do exposures about your TV settings but your OCD theme is not about TV settings so its all a moot point. You deal with the theme you are currently suffering from and, in your case, it has absolutely nothing to do with TV settings.

The purpose of doing exposures is so that you can practice the RP or response prevention, which means not doing compulsions. You are not to habituate to any new reality. One of the best examples of ERP done well here on the forum is from Ashley. He has a contamination theme and for an exposure he stuck his hand in a toilet. He followed that up by NOT washing his hands (response prevention). Now, in no way did Ashley 'habituate' to sticking his hand in a toilet. It's not like he kept doing it or kept his hand in a toilet forever, which is what you are suggesting with TV settings, that you should be comfortable with off settings basically forever, which is ridiculous. He did it once and that was that. He taught himself that he could do it but he was under no illusion that he was going to do it repeatedly in the future. Even if he did it a few times, or a dozen times, he wasn't going to continually do it. Once his anxiety level would come down on its own he was done with that exposure. On to the next. I should also add that Ashley did a heck of a lot of work on the cognitive side and stopping compulsions before he ever stuck his hand in a toilet.

[PolarBear]

1 hour ago, saddaniels said:

Or to put it another way:

Normal person doesn't like his TV zoomed in, so he keeps it on the setting that he finds most suitable & fit to his preference.

No exposure required, obviously.

 

OCD person doesn't like his TV zoomed in, but constantly checks his settings day in and day out to make sure his settings are still suitable & fit to how he likes it.

His exposure: set the TV off/zoom it in. 

 

My question is, what is supposed to come of this exposure when applied to therapy?

I'm confused & trying to learn the purpose of exposures.

 

I would personally not recommend the OCD person purposefully screw up the TV settings as an exposure. I would get him to concentrate on not doing the compulsions (checking the settings repeatedly). You don't have to do exposures all the time to recover from OCD.

[PolarBear]

1 hour ago, saddaniels said:

While being completely anxious & in distress, but still, trying to wrap my head around it.

The rumination is bad, yes. It hurts, yes. Am I tired all the time? Yes. Will I completely dismiss ERP? No. Because I want to beat OCD. 

You're not going to beat your current OCD theme by fixating on useless exposure exercises.

[saddaniels]

Beginning to make more sense. Thank you, PolarBear. So, exposures are really just an artificial recreation of whatever makes you want to do compulsions. 

For me, sitting in front of my TV is really hard because I feel the need to mess with settings/ruminate about therapy. My exposure should then be to sit in front of my TV & not mess with anything.

Still confused as to why my past therapist had me mess up settings & then watch TV until my anxiety came down. It really confused me, like I was supposed to be watching TV on settings I didn't like on a regular basis.

 

Anyway, I'm going to try the exposure of sitting in front of my TV how I like it & not messing with settings/trying not to ruminate. It's going to be hard. I tried it today & it was really hard. Even went out to the supermarket & was still thinking about all of this. I have to try though. You are right. It's the only way to get on the road to recovery. OCD is going to remind of what past therapists have said, ERP, etc. but I have to push on, even though it may produce lots of anxiety.

[PolarBear]

On 18/02/2017 at 09:20, saddaniels said:

Yes, that sounds like the right thing to do. I still don't understand exposures though. Like habituation to wrong settings. What's the point when you just go back to settings you like? If they still make me anxious, I obviously didn't habituate to them like I was supposed to. Maybe I'm not being clear with my confusion on heher

[saddaniels]

It's like my mind has decided that sitting in front of my TV resisting compulsions/getting on with my life is too easy, so it looks for exposures to do & analyzes like crazy trying to piece together any amount of evidence that I should be participating in exposures. 

Why does it have to be this way? Why is the OCD so strong that it's not letting me decide what to do? I guess that's the nature of this sinister disease. It's like I have the part of my brain where I know what I need to & the other half is screaming false alarms.

[snowbear]

45 minutes ago, saddaniels said:

Why does it have to be this way? Why is the OCD so strong that it's not letting me decide what to do?

Questions that begin with 'why?' can all too easily end up becoming pointless ruminations.  

But some have a very simple answer, though you may find hard to get your head around it.

For example: 'Why does it have to be this way?'

Well, bottom line is it doesn't have to be this way. It's currently this way because you're responding to the problem with thoughts that make it difficult. Your over-thinking response is creating the problem. 

You asked, 'Why is the OCD so strong it's not letting me decide what to do?' 

Answer: you ARE deciding what to do. You decide to listen to the thoughts that tell you you should have things this way or that way. You decide whether to act on your thoughts, go against them, or ignore them. 

You decide what 'this way' is like through the choices you make in response to your thoughts. 

Choose the simple option (it doesn't matter which way things are set) and you create a simple life for yourself.

Pay attention to the thoughts that say things have to be a particular way and you create problems where none existed. The uncomfortable feeling you get when you're not sure if what you've chosen is right only happens because you bought into the idea there is a right and and wrong way. There isn't. 

Remember the Confucius quote,  'The path is smooth. Why do you throw stones in your way?'  

OCD isn't some monster separate from us and stronger than us. You are every bit as strong as the OCD. You're equal to the fight. It's just a matter of choosing to travel the smooth path (ignore the thoughts) instead of always creating a stony, difficult path for yourself to follow.

[PolarBear]

2 hours ago, saddaniels said:

It's like my mind has decided that sitting in front of my TV resisting compulsions/getting on with my life is too easy, so it looks for exposures to do & analyzes like crazy trying to piece together any amount of evidence that I should be participating in exposures. 

Why does it have to be this way? Why is the OCD so strong that it's not letting me decide what to do? I guess that's the nature of this sinister disease. It's like I have the part of my brain where I know what I need to & the other half is screaming false alarms.

At least you are identifying the problem as OCD and speaking on terms of what OCD wants you to do. That's a good step for you.

Tell yourself these thoughts of doing TV setting exposures are nonsense and resist ruminating over them. Don't give ocd the time of day. Practice, practice. You'll get it right.

[chaosed]

I don't know if it helps, and if someone would agree with me that would be great.

But in my experience, anything you do that, if you don't do, won't cause any anxiety, is not a compulsion.

"Struggling" with pure O, you come to wonder wether you said something in your head as a compulsion or not, so what I said above really helps, for me, to differentiate between normal stuff I tell myself and a compulsion.

[saddaniels]

All of this is still bothering me really badly. I keep trying to have a positive mindset that none of this matters, but it isn't working. I try to tell myself that the purpose of ERP is to become comfortable with uncertainty, but then all of the thoughts of what's irrational/rational comes into play. I never went into therapy for people to tell me what was rational/irrational, such as TV settings & which settings I thought were important vs. which ones my therapists thought were important. 

All I wanted to do was participate in ERP so I could cut down on compulsions, not become comfortable with putting my settings off after that. 

I feel like a horrible person right now because I don't like my TV zoomed in a bit. It would make me really anxious to go against my choice of having my TV set the way I want in & then just zooming it in a bit. 

I don't understand why my therapists had me put settings off for an exposure. I don't understand. It makes zero sense.

why couldn't they have just told me "hey, it's cool you like your TV to be lined up correctly, but let's try not to check it so much. Let's cut down on compulsions. Checking it day in and day out isn't going to change anything."

but no, they would do & say things like "so what if your tv is off?" One therapist even told me if she could watch TV with settings off, so could I.

its awful. I never wanted to change anything about me and how I liked things to be. All I wanted to achieve was to cut back on the compulsions (checking settings to make sure they weren't off repeatedly)

i never wanted to get comfortable with them being off.

i want to go forward with the simple approach of letting things be as they are & being allowed to have things the way I want/need them to be.

like, every human is allowed that choice. And just because I'm sick with a mental illness, something is wrong with me if I think having my tv zoomed in a bit is a setting I'm not comfortable with and would rather have all of the screen showing

or not even a zoom, let's say I liked having my TV volume on exactly the half way mark & didn't like having it set any higher/lower than that. Let's say I find that unacceptable and it would make me uncomfortable to have the volume off. Well, I'm still human and have a right to think that way. As long as it isn't taking up my whole day checking settings, why should it matter?

Basically, if you're obsessed with something, great. Who cares? I'm not going to judge you. Be obsessed with what you want to be obsessed with.

compulsions though. That's the problem. When you check all day and it ruins your life, you have a problem.

so why is ERP so focused on combatting your obsessions when really what therapists should be doing is helping the patient limit their compulsions. Compulsions are what drives ocd, correct? 

This all goes over my head.

this post is not a jab at anyone on this forum. I'm just really disappointed in how therapists in America are all like "expose yourself to this and you will get better"