Ouija board as therapy.

[Ashley]

I did quite a bit of erp challenging a fear of burglary last year - I left the door unlocked for short periods of time and it really helped. I have often wondered whether actually getting burgled would be a fantastic form of exposure! - going a bit far though!

Probably not the best exposure to be burgled! But living with fear of burglary is not a life at all, so by doing this exposure you are hopefully living life better now. You faced OCD head on, you did not find 100 excuses not to do the challenge you did it! Not easy, but then taking risks never is.

I will tell you all a story, one chap who came to my group many years ago would spend 30/40 minutes every time he parked his car checking it, sometimes longer. One night after the group he went home enthused from the group and decided off his own back to go in and not check. Next morning he came out, he had left lights on and killed his battery! Arrgh, of all the luck! Anyway, when he came back to the group the following month to tell the story, at this point I was thinking 'oh ******, reinforced his OCD' but actually quite the opposite, he went on to tell us 'Well messing around getting a new battery that cost £80 was not fun, but I would much rather that hassle once a year than dealing with OCD every time I use the car'.

[PolarBear]

Many people choose not to believe the hype about ouija boards. And it is a choice.

[Caramoole]

13 pages of discussion about this!

The bottom line is we have to make a choice and then sit with it, whatever choice we opt for

[taurean]

I wouldn't play around with an ouija board as it would stimulate my mind to play seriously distressing tricks on me.

Neither would I frighten myself silly with something I know would be profoundly distressing - like a disturbing book or film.

But I am a total advocate of carrying out practical ERP.

I am no fan of the overwhelming "flooding" approach but a standard approach of seeking out triggers I need to tackle and facing them out till the anxiety eases has been helping me enormously.

Edited August 4, 2015 by taurean

[gingerbreadgirl]

living with fear of burglary is not a life at all, so by doing this exposure you are hopefully living life better now.

Yes. It was amazing actually how just a relatively small amount of exposure dramatically reduced a fear I'd had constantly since I was about 6/7 - I just wish I'd had the guts to confront it years ago! I am still pretty nervous at night but I would say my anxiety has reduced by probably 70-80% compared to what it was before. Bottom line - CBT can and does work, and I think for certain obsessions (particularly with more ritualistic/physical compulsions) graded exposure can be pretty miraculous if followed properly (though not always the case, of course).

[Ashley]

I am no fan of the overwhelming "flooding" approach but a standard approach of seeking out triggers I need to tackle and facing them out till the anxiety eases has been helping me enormously.

Neither am I, but gradual exposure I am . At one time me putting my arm down the toilet would have been flooding in the extreme. Instead I worked up to it over some time, maybe over 2-3 years arguably, and in the end it became nothing more than my next exposure, it was not flooding, it was progression on the road to recovery.

The same applies in absolutely every context, even Ouija boards if that is relevant to someone's OCD, whatever the use is for exposure, you build up to it. That's not flooding, that's gradual exposure.

[Guest Tricia]

The problem is you see risk in using a Ouija board. Many people do not. When Ashley is suggesting using a Ouija board as exposure, it is coming from a paradigm where there is no inherent risk in doing so. There is no comparison to touching live wires and using a Ouija board. One has a real, identifiable risk. The other is make believe. It's about challenging a cognitive distortion, over estimation of threat.

The point is that many people do not feel it is make believe and are convinced it's highly dangerous! I don't think my vicar or any Catholic priest would agree with you about cognitive distortion over a fear of using the Ouija.

Many people choose not to believe the hype about ouija boards. And it is a choice.

I don't feel it is a choice. If you hear terrifying accounts from those you love/trust then you don't choose to believe, you just do!

When a friend of mine asked the psychologist she is seeing whether he'd advocate using the Ouija, to combat certain obsessions, he told her to avoid it at all costs, as living with OCD is bad enough without inviting far worse trouble.

Lots of people claim to have had divine experiences - visits from God, miraculous healing, divine intervention, and so on.

None of which is evidence. I went to a convent boarding school and not one of the nuns or priests had experienced anything that could be described as evidence of God. They admitted that their faith is blind. However, they (and we children) did see clear evidence of ghosts/spirits.

Miraculous healing may well occur (I believe in healing) but there's no evidence it comes from God (it may well do, but there's no proof).

However, the many accounts of accurate information (and awful consequences) coming from using the Ouija are well reported. GBG, if you have the chance, try to read a copy of the (out of print) book by Michael Bentine called The Door Marked Summer, Michael's father was a scientist who decided to investigate the paranormal - much to the disgust and dismay of his colleagues and fellow Catholics! It's a fascinating book.

So what's worse, a burglary or living with OCD for the rest of your life that causes distress daily and forces a person to check for hours at a time before leaving the house? Yes there is a risk by not locking the door, but let me tell you something, most burglars will find a way to break in anyway, locked or not!

The other point is that even if Mr or Mrs OCD lock the door, if they have a fear/checking then their OCD will tell them they have left it unlocked a mile down the road anyway, so why not challenge the OCD head on and leave it unlocked?

I don't think we need to make that choice - between leaving a door unlocked - and risking losing all our possessions - (I do assure you insurance would not cover this!) or living with the fear. if that were the case, I think David Veale and other experts would suggest such exposure for this particular obsession and they do not, they say not to leave a door unlocked!

I do agree with you about burglars finding a way in if they really want to, but at least if you lock your doors you will be covered by your insurance company!

As for your last remark, I wonder if that reasoning will change the way insurance companies operate! Mr or Mrs OCD will almost certainly panic the door is unlocked, once they're a mile down the road, even when they do lock it, but the therapy is to continue on their way, despite their extreme discomfort, and not go back to check!!

I did quite a bit of erp challenging a fear of burglary last year - I left the door unlocked for short periods of time and it really helped. I have often wondered whether actually getting burgled would be a fantastic form of exposure! - going a bit far though!

I have a friend who was burgled, and not just robbed of her possessions but her house was trashed. It truly was not 'a fantastic form of exposure' and hasn't helped her one bit.

P.S. Ashley, I understand how a gradual approach to certain exposures works, but I don't see how it would work with the Ouija.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Tricia

[Ashley]

I don't think we need to make that choice - between leaving a door unlocked - and risking losing all our possessions - (I do assure you insurance would not cover this!) or living with the fear. if that were the case, I think David Veale and other experts would suggest such exposure for this particular obsession and they do not, they say not to leave a door unlocked!

I do agree with you about burglars finding a way in if they really want to, but at least if you lock your doors you will be covered by your insurance company!

As for your last remark, I wonder if that reasoning will change the way insurance companies operate! Mr or Mrs OCD will almost certainly panic the door is unlocked, once they're a mile down the road, even when they do lock it, but the therapy is to continue on their way, despite their extreme discomfort, and not go back to check!!

I have a friend who was burgled, and not just robbed of her possessions but her house was trashed. it truly was not 'a fantastic form of exposure' and hasn't helped her one bit.

A friend for every occasion Tricia!

You are right, if a house is left unlocked it may not be covered by insurance, that's not to say they have to find out it was unlocked, but that grey area aside. This is an OCD forum about promoting what is best for recovery. It's a choice, do what is best for your insurance or do what is best for your recovery. I hope others will choose to do what is best for their recovery, just like Gingerbreadgirl did so well.

[Guest Tricia]

They need evidence of a break-in!

And why the sarcasm about my friends?! Shall I ask her to phone you to describe what occurred to her? I sense some doubt that I am telling the truth and I don't care for it! One thing I am is truthful!

[gingerbreadgirl]

I have a friend who was burgled, and not just robbed of her possessions but her house was trashed. It truly was not 'a fantastic form of exposure' and hasn't helped her one bit.

I do not for a moment think being burgled would be an enjoyable experience - having suffered from an almost overwhelming terror of being burgled for over 20 years you don't need to tell me that. However I do believe being burgled would not be as bad as being overwhelmed by terror day in day out - to live in fear is not to live at all - and in that respect it would indeed be excellent exposure at it would teach my overwhelmed brain once and for all that fear is not the answer and neither are compulsions.

To be honest I'm not sure what point you are trying to make and this argument appears to be rolling on for no good reason.

I will therefore bow out. Thanks for the debate everyone.

[Guest Tricia]

I'm sorry, GBG, and I do see your point. I even know of someone who found having cancer easier than obsessing she'd develop cancer (No, Ashley, not a friend this time, but an acquaintance of a friend). I think the word 'fantastic' got to me a bit as my friend has been too afraid to leave the house since this horrible thing happened to her.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Tricia

[gingerbreadgirl]

I'm sorry, GBG, and I do see your point. I even know of someone who found having cancer easier than obsessing she'd develop cancer (No, Ashley, not a friend this time, but an acquaintance of a friend). I think the word 'fantastic' got to me a bit as my friend has been too afraid to leave the house since this horrible thing happened to her.

I see your point Tricia and I apologise, it was a tacky choice of word, partly borne out of me trying to rationalise with myself during particularly nervous nights! I don't honestly think it would be 'fantastic' but I do think surviving it would be a good lesson, for me personally.

[Guest Tricia]

I apologize, too. I should have realized what you meant and thinking about it I do!

[gingerbreadgirl]

I apologize, too. I should have realized what you meant and thinking about it I do!

No apology necessary, just a misunderstanding

[Ashley]

They need evidence of a break-in!

And why the sarcasm about my friends?! Shall I ask her to phone you to describe what occurred to her? I sense some doubt that I am telling the truth and I don't care for it! One thing I am is truthful!

Not at all.

We can't keep living our OCD through friends and books Tricia, you constant quote from one or the other on every thread, which is fine. The point I am making or should have made is at some point we have to test things for ourselves and challenge our OCD, friends and books cant do that for you.

[daisy]

I don't want to get into any arguments about this,but I feel that this thread is getting a bit personal,I really can't see anything wrong with Tricia saying about someone she knows or if she has found something in a book that might help someone,I have seen others do the same,and I am pretty sure that Tricia must be feeling very upset right now,and she has enough to cope with,without any sarcastic comments.

Just my observation on this guys!

[taurean]

I rest my case as per my earlier comments, and maybe it is time now to rest the thread.

I am out too.

[PolarBear]

I don't feel it is a choice. If you hear terrifying accounts from those you love/trust then you don't choose to believe, you just do!

It is absolutely a choice. I could hear terrifying accounts from those I love/trust and choose not to buy into the hype around Ouija boards. It is most definitely a choice. Anyone can choose to believe in the hype or not. If your vicar tells you that Ouija boards are evil and are to be avoided at all costs, it is up to you to choose to believe that and go along with him, or not. You are absolutely free to choose.

[Guest Tricia]

I don't agree. My mother told me years ago of her experience with the Ouija. I then heard so many other people's tales and I didn't choose to believe, I just believed.

It's no different from the things I obsess over (I don't actually obsess over the Ouija!). None of them are choices, they are reactions beyond my control. Yes, I can choose to stop compulsions. I can choose to face fear, but I do not choose the fears/intrusive thoughts in the first place.

There have been many incidences in my life where I have wished I could choose to believe, and, more often, not believe, but, as I say, if we listen with an open mind, it is often an unconscious reaction whether we find ourselves believing or not.

I actually didn't want to believe in the occult, but with more reading on the subject I discovered my relatives' and friends' experiences were far from isolated occurrences.

Also, seeing is believing. I cannot now choose not to believe in ghosts/spirits when I and every girl in my school saw them! I also worked in a veterinary surgery that was said to be haunted and I was reluctant to accept that some entity was unlocking animals' cages during the night. I actually mocked the vets, believing human error/carelessness was more likely to blame. However, I was proven wrong! Again this was not a choice, I had to accept what was occurring before my own eyes!

I will also repeat what the OCD expert Lee Baer says on religious obsessions. If a person is convinced of certain beliefs (even when the therapist may totally disagree with them) it is most unwise to encourage them to face exposure therapy and can do more harm than good.

[gingerbreadgirl]

As interesting as this discussion is I feel personally it is not really achieving anything useful... there will always be those who strongly believe and those who strongly don't believe, I think we should maybe just allow each other to believe whatever we choose - it is not really a debate of facts or opinions but about faith, and that's down to personal choice really.

[taurean]

The only thing this thread is achieving at this point would appear to be discord .

Surely that is not to where we should be directing our energies?

[daisy]

I totally agree Tricia,I believe also that we can't choose to not believe our fears if they have been either put there by someone or we have seen for ourselves if only we could! Yes I also agree that we can choose to stop our compulsions,but for some that also is nigh on impossible!

[Guest]

Everyone can believe what they want, but let me ask you (people who believe in the powers of Ouija board) this: do you believe that a piece of paper with alphabet written on it can serve as an Ouija? Going further, do you believe that anything with letters written on it, for example a book, can serve as an Ouija? If yes, then how do you manage to live with that? I'm asking because I started to believe that at one point in my life. You could say I had a fear of letters, however absurd it may sound. If you don't believe it, then how is Ouija board different than the things I mentioned? What makes it so special?

[Legend]

I don't agree. My mother told me years ago of her experience with the Ouija. I then heard so many other people's tales and I didn't choose to believe, I just believed.

It's no different from the things I obsess over (I don't actually obsess over the Ouija!). None of them are choices, they are reactions beyond my control. Yes, I can choose to stop compulsions. I can choose to face fear, but I do not choose the fears/intrusive thoughts in the first place.

There have been many incidences in my life where I have wished I could choose to believe, and, more often, not believe, but, as I say, if we listen with an open mind, it is often an unconscious reaction whether we find ourselves believing or not.

I actually didn't want to believe in the occult, but with more reading on the subject I discovered my relatives' and friends' experiences were far from isolated occurrences.

Also, seeing is believing. I cannot now choose not to believe in ghosts/spirits when I and every girl in my school saw them! I also worked in a veterinary surgery that was said to be haunted and I was reluctant to accept that some entity was unlocking animals' cages during the night. I actually mocked the vets, believing human error/carelessness was more likely to blame. However, I was proven wrong! Again this was not a choice, I had to accept what was occurring before my own eyes!

I will also repeat what the OCD expert Lee Baer says on religious obsessions. If a person is convinced of certain beliefs (even when the therapist may totally disagree with them) it is most unwise to encourage them to face exposure therapy and can do more harm than good.

so what does lee baer suggest for cbt in religous type ocd ?

[Caramoole]

As interesting as this discussion is I feel personally it is not really achieving anything useful..

I agree.

Clearly Tricia has made a decision based on her own beliefs, that's her personal decision. Others disagree. Only you Tricia can make the choice and it's clear no-one elses view will influence you or you them

The original question has been debated with opinion re ouija swinging one way or the other. I don't think anything further will be resolved or opinion swayed