I don't know whether I am OK or not

[Gemma7]

No not yet, had to have tea. It's looking ok though

[gingerbreadgirl]

I'm sorry to bring this up again, I'm conscious of ruminating but I am thinking a couple of things. 

I have digested what you've said gemma and largely I think you're right I can see I have been affected by things in my childhood. But at the same time, I'm not sure what difference it makes? Even if I can acknowledge that certain things were not my fault, it doesn't make my behaviour any better. I was totally selfish and at times really horrible and regardless of why, it feels unacceptable to me and I don't know how to feel at peace with myself. I don't care if it was my fault or not really. 

Plus plenty of people have a childhood  MILES worse than mine and didn't behave like me. I feel I am making excuses. 

Sorry I know I am just going round and round in circles. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by gingerbreadgirl

[gingerbreadgirl]

23 hours ago, Gemma7 said:

No not yet, had to have tea. It's looking ok though

I'm glad your painting is looking good! Have you been doing it today?

Edited April 29, 2019 by gingerbreadgirl

[taurean]

Hi GBG, 

I have this feeling that you are locked into the active doing part of the brain, that won't "stand down" until it is certain it has cracked things - and so is locked in the rumination spiral. 

I broke out of the constantly churning obsessive thoughts that kept me stuck, using mindfulness. 

I was just as sceptical about this possibility as many others are about mindfulness; but when I mastered how to drop in and out of it just when I needed to, well then the results were spectacular. 

Because in that mental mode, the mental chatter and the urge to resolve things eases away, and we switch into the benign "just being" part of the brain. 

And we simply operate in the zone, the zone where we just "be", in the place where we are, solely in the present, just thinking and doing what is immediate to us. 

An example of this is when we are watching a film. I watched "Mamma Mia - Here We Go Again" last night, and throughout I was just totally involved in the film. 

We don't have to go on a course to learn mindfulness. We can start to practise it by purely going on a walk - just focusing on what we see, smell, hear - the buildings shops businesses, their wares, what people are doing, what they are wearing, what types of cars, of what colour, are passing. 

It's simple, and it's free. 

Gradually we learn to slip out of active "doing" mode, and into benign "just being" mode as and when we please. And we can leave behind all the unhelpful thinking. 

To recover, we have to challenge our thoughts and change our behaviours in normal thinking mode, and learn calm and relaxation and mindfulness within the benign mode. 

The combination for me was momentous, life-changing. 

Guided by snowbear I added in the self-forgiveness, self-love concept too, and here I now am. 

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by taurean

[Guest]

Hi GBG, Gemma will explain much better than me, but I think you may have misunderstood the purpose of looking at attachment theory. It is not about examining your past behaviours, and it is certainly not about apportioning blame, but it is about helping you to understand your core beliefs, how they may have formed, and therefore how to change them in the here and now so are less reactive to triggers. You really don't need to look at past behaviour in any depth. Have you looked into getting into professional help? A good therapist will be able to spot the difference between rumination and useful reflection and keep you on the right path.

ps did you know that it is estimated that up to 40% of people in the uk have insecure attachment styles? It's possible to have a wonderful childhood and still have attachment problems. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Guest

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks Roy and wren. What you've said makes sense. I understand all this in theory I just have a real disconnect between what I know and what I feel. I can't escape this feeling that I don't deserve anything good, not even to feel better. 

Anyway I have a lot of work to do don't I! 

Thanks both x 

[Gemma7]

15 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

But at the same time, I'm not sure what difference it makes?

Put simply it doesn't make any difference. Like wren said knowing you were anxiously attached is just an explanation of how you have arrived here. It doesn't absolve one person and make guilty another, that's your biased thinking style. All you focus on is working out who was in the wrong, shifting guilt from you to likely your parents and back again. There is no blame anywhere, stuff happened, that's it. The outcome of that stuff might be rubbish but it's all just stuff. None of it needs assigned a label. 

15 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I was totally selfish and at times really horrible and regardless of why, it feels unacceptable to me and I don't know how to feel at peace with myself. I don't care if it was my fault or not really. 

This is one of your biggest problems. You have no self-compassion, zero. You don't care that you might have been unhappy or struggling, you think there is no excuse. Thing is there are reasons people behave how they do, but you label reasons as excuses, so you can't win. You don't care about yourself, you treat yourself despicably, and never how you would tell others to treat themselves. It is a complete double standard of behaviour. Until you learn, and it will be something that you have to learn, to not only feel sorry for the girl you once were, but to then behave like you are, you can't overcome this. You are simply too unforgiving of yourself. 

16 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Plus plenty of people have a childhood  MILES worse than mine and didn't behave like me. I feel I am making excuses.

Childhoods are complicated so stop making a judgement based on very little information. How do you know what makes one childhood more difficult than another? The excuse you are making is the one you make all the time, the excuse not to feel compassion for the person you were. That's why you can't move forward. 

[taurean]

Really really good summary Gemma. 

In another life you would sure make a great analyst. 

Thank goodness though the charity, and us, do get some input from you

 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks gemma, again. I'm sorry I know it must be like banging your head on a wall. 

I think I've given this impression that I blame myself for everything and always see others as right but actually I can be really harsh and critical and argumentative to people especially my partner. I think I swing between seeing myself as wrong and then seeing others as wrong without any mid ground. Black and white thinking central right

I think deep down my default setting is quite selfish and if I let myself off the hook I just revert to this and start hurting people  again etc. 

Anyway sorry, I am really listening and taking it on board and I am actually trying to be kinder to myself and see the broader context of things x 

 

[Gemma7]

2 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I think I've given this impression that I blame myself for everything and always see others as right but actually I can be really harsh and critical and argumentative to people especially my partner. I think I swing between seeing myself as wrong and then seeing others as wrong without any mid ground. Black and white thinking central right 

Yes some excellent black and white thinking there

The thing is you confuse issues. In the moment peoples actions can be broadly categorised in to right and wrong (although this is always just based on opinion), if someone calls someone a name, unprovoked, that would in general be seen as unkind, however, if someone calls someone a name in response to something, then they may have acted naturally given what had gone before. Everyone could be in the wrong or it could just be a collection of things that happened where everyone acted as expected, no wrong just behaviours. That's in the moment stuff, but what you do is blame your past self, over and over. You may blame others over and over but it's irrelevant. What you need to focus on is what is causing you a problem. Blaming others is fine, as long as it has no impact, same goes for yourself. However, blaming yourself, not forgiving yourself is preventing you from moving forward in life. 

9 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I think deep down my default setting is quite selfish and if I let myself off the hook I just revert to this and start hurting people  again etc. 

Bet you have no evidence this is true. I don't believe it, it sounds like made up nonsense designed to keep you safe. Bit like OCD. Until you try living differently you will never know this is a load. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Yeah i see what you're saying life is complex and there's is no box marked "right" or "wrong" but just things that happen based on a whole range of circumstances. I really do get that. I just don't FEEL it. 

I think the reason I am so down on myself is because if I am down on myself other people will say "don't be silly" etc. It stops them from criticising me and ergo rejecting me. Like I worry that if I am not self critical then I will be criticised by someone else instead. And that is basically what I'm scared of, if someone told me I was a bad person it would feel like the worst thing in the world. Even if that's not what they meant. A lot of my energy goes into managing this possibility. 

[Gemma7]

2 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I just don't FEEL it. 

Because you don't ACT it. You need to change what you do, including what you do in your head. 

 

3 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

A lot of my energy goes into managing this possibility.

Of course it does, you are protecting yourself, totally natural response. However, it has become the problem. It is undermining you at every turn and stopping you learn how the world really works, and that when someone says you are a bad person, it's not so bad. You have made it seem like the worst thing in the world because of these behaviours. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks gemma I appreciate your time and I will think about all this. 

Hope you're doing OK x 

[gingerbreadgirl]

OK so I've decided I am going to experiment with the idea of just acting like maybe I am OK, maybe I am basically fine. I see this as a theory B experiment. Every time I find myself doing something designed to protect myself against being a bad person in some way I will try to do the opposite. There's loads of things I tend to do so lots of stuff I can work with!! 

I don't deserve to feel like this whatever I may have done or whatever flaws I may have. I have a right to be happy even though I'm not perfect. Which should be obvious but it isn't to me! 

[Gemma7]

Sounds like a plan. Remember if you have lots of behaviours that buy into the idea you are bad then you might not be aware of some. So if you start to feel unsure, look at what you were doing when you started to feel that way to see if it was a safety behaviour. 

Good luck with your experiments

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks gemma. Yeah I think there are many and some of them I have thought as a good thing - me "being nice" - but actually I can see some of this niceness is actually an attempt to get some kind of validation /approval from somebody. (Not always, I am genuinely nice sometimes haha!) if that makes sense. 

[Gemma7]

Of course you are

Yeah it's going to be hard and take time, because some will be ingrained habits. But just keep an eye on the goal, you not being tortured by this feeling anymore x

Oh and don't forget predictions, I'm rubbish at doing this. But if you write down or note how you expect things to go, then the contrast can really open your eyes 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks gemma x

You really should be a therapist!!

[gingerbreadgirl]

I'm sorry to bring this up again but I don't really know what to do about this. I am so sick of feeling like this, i think my life would be so different if I could feel at peace with myself.  But I don't. I feel that my default setting is just this awful horrible person that i want to disown, I want to send her back and get a refund!! 

And the thing is i know that there are all kinds of suggestions for changing core beliefs but how do you change something if you just feel like it's the truth? It's not like I could change my belief that the earth is round because that's just a fact.  

Whenever I say this kind of thing to people they are always like "don't be silly" etc but all I think that means is that I present myself quite well.  When the chips are down I reveal who I really am, I think I am selfish, thoughtless, impulsive, and sometimes just truly horrible especially to people I care about. And I know people say "oh everyone's like that" but I don't think they are.  I don't even know how I could change that or even if it's possible to change who you really are.  Sure I can do good actions but they're only ever temporary.

Whether any of this is my fault or not is honestly irrelevant to me.  I can see some of it is not my fault.  But all I care about is that I think my default behaviours are hurtful and I hate that. 

Also, although I know I have OCD I don't think this this is OCD, or at least not entirely, I don't think disengaging from it will really change it. I don't think anything will, honestly, i think this is just how it is. 

(I know it seems like I must be a real downer but I feel happy enough when I don't think about this.  But it always comes back round eventually.) 

Edited May 4, 2019 by gingerbreadgirl

[taurean]

You are ruminating GBG, determining to find certainty

You just need to think "whatever" and break out of the carrying out of compulsions. 

As I said before, I think mindfulness might help you do this - it certainly has been game-changing for me. 

"The quite short guide to mindfulness" by Padraig O'Morain, plus any of his other mindfulness books, could set you on your way. 

I can now slip in, and out, of mindfulness when I need to - and for me it is brilliant. 

[taurean]

Why does it come back? Well when it does, you connect with it, start believing it, ruminating. 

It's, as we always say, the behavioural response that needs changing and the thoughts are just unwanted intrusive thoughts. 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

It's not like I could change my belief that the earth is round because that's just a fact.

 

27 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I don't even know how I could change that or even if it's possible to change who you really are.  Sure I can do good actions but they're only ever temporary.

Hi GBG, sorry your feeling this way. I've quoted the two comments above to point out a contradiction in your thoughts...

Do you honestly believe that it is a fact that personality is 100% innate, set from birth, cannot be changed etc. or do you believe that humans are a product of both nature AND nurture? The idea that personality is 100% innate is not backed up by science so I don't see how you can claim it as a true fact. People can and do change their behaviour, thoughts, beliefs across their lifespan.

[Cub]

I often worry about this too, Ginger, if that's any consolation. 10 years ago, I was much more rigid than I am now; it's only time, and growth and a lot of therapy (a LOOOOOOT of therapy! ) that's taught me I don't have to be super-duper-perfect and obedient and Good all the time. I used to ask my Mum if I was good and she would assure me I always was, always sounding very worried too when I asked. When it came to the whole 'being human' thing, I took the long way around.

Because I've become more relaxed, I have been worrying about my limits and whether or not my good will strip away, bit by bit, until I become someone I don't like. It's the little things; should I read that, can I read that, I know that person at work is nice, but they kind of annoy me, etc. I've become much more aware of my own humanity - and in a way, it's made me more aware of the humanity of others. I've been compulsively praying not to be bad, but honestly, I think if you're aware of what could happen, then it won't happen, you know? Besides, you're an awesome person. 

That's not to say we shouldn't try. But rather...we should remember we are trying. One thing that's stuck with me over the years is a friend telling me 'God knows we're not perfect; follow the big rules, try your best on the rest.' More recently, a quotation from Endeavour on ITV: 'The world's bent. We can't fix it.' 'WE CAN TRY.' All you can do is try, but don't try yourself to the point of pain. 

This doesn't make much sense - I need a cup of tea - but yeah, just to let you know, I get it. Even if just a little.

Stay cool!

C x

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

This is why one with OCD never should analyze. It never get you anywhere. And tjatvis also why I really really fear seeing any OCD-sufferer going to talktherapy

Edited May 4, 2019 by OCDhavenobrain

[malina]

On 30/04/2019 at 12:55, gingerbreadgirl said:

Yeah i see what you're saying life is complex and there's is no box marked "right" or "wrong" but just things that happen based on a whole range of circumstances. I really do get that. I just don't FEEL it. 

On 29/04/2019 at 17:58, gingerbreadgirl said:

I was totally selfish and at times really horrible and regardless of why, it feels unacceptable to me and I don't know how to feel at peace with myself. I don't care if it was my fault or not really. 

Hey GBG, I've quoted these two posts because I think they really hone in on the problem you're experiencing. Or at least they summarised how I have felt when I've had similar issues with guilt. You're right in a way that it doesn't matter whether it was your fault or not. You're also right that you may have truly done something wrong and hurtful. The point is that you have to move on, you can't spend your life punishing yourself for the past.

As we've been saying, everybody has done something that they are ashamed of or something that is bad. You say that nobody you know has done anything that bad, but honestly you can't possibly know that. We have all said hurtful things, behaved in a selfish way, it's part of normal life and I'm certain that all of your friends have been this way at some point. The difference is that they have been able to move past that, but someone with OCD gets stuck.

What you need to do is to disengage from this. There is no magic formula for how to do this, you just have to force yourself to think rationally I think. Don't allow yourself to go down the path of reliving those moments and trying to negotiate with your feelings. It won't work. With OCD I think sometimes you have to be categorical, you just have to say a firm "no".

Now the problem of not feeling it. I can absolutely relate to this one. It is very difficult because you logically understand that something is irrational but it feels so real. I think this is where time and practice come in. It's like learning any new skill, it won't work at first but after you work on it, it will start to feel real. I can say this is true because it's been my experience. At first, I kept thinking to myself...sure all this makes sense, but I still feel horrible, I can't just switch off my feelings....but now I'm starting to see that after trying to think differently for a few months I have started to feel differently too. Then you're able to generalise this skill to other themes as well and they start feeling less bad too!

I think it's great that you've decided to tackle this and talking it through with others always helps, but understanding the process is only part of the battle. Now you have to "do", that is the only way to start changing your feelings.

Good luck!! xx